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filling small gaps in paua inlay?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23948		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  ayavner [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  filling small gaps in paua inlay?
Hi all - I am at the point of doing an inlay using paua on my headstock. The design has a few curves and some very thin lines.

i am able to use a stained glass water grinder to get alot of the pieces thin enough and the larger curves oK, however in areas where there are thin lines AND tight curves, there will be a couple of spots that there just won't be any practical way to cut a piece of shell that small - it would be smaller than you could likely hold with tweezers and a magnifying glass (remember, i am just talking about small gaps here).

Was wondering, in those small gaps that I would still like to have paua in (as opposed to epoxy or glue/sawdust) can I grind up some of the shell and mix with CA? Well, i know I CAN, but will it look close enough to the real deal once sanded and finished?

All my prior inlay experience has been with easy geometric shapes with little or no gaps.

any ideas welcome. I can post a pic in a day or so if necessary.

Adam
Author:  Bailey [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
I am going to have a similar issue with a script style lettering inlay on my upcoming peghead. I will have 3 areas that are going to be VERY, VERY narrow and cutting/grinding the abalone will be nearly impossible to fill.
I'll be awaiting a response to your question.....and if I have time....I'll experiment with your idea this week. The way abalone refracts light in layers , I doubt a filler paste will be a great match. Some color will still help the design flow from section to section. I would sure only use it in the finest of voids....if it works at all.
Kent Bailey
Author:  Mark Groza [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
I would think that a dark background would be the best place to fill any gaps.A lighter area filled with paua would just show too much.So i always fill the darker area of the gap which is much easier to hide.
Author:  the Padma [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
Mark Groza wrote:
I would think that a dark background would be the best place to fill any gaps.A lighter area filled with paua would just show too much.So i always fill the darker area of the gap which is much easier to hide.



You could grind up some shell...looks like ground up shell.

Or you could use mica powders. Go to art stores ask for Pearl Ex by Jacquard Products...mix with binder of you perswasion and fill cracks. It aint paua but it sure gonna look a heck of a lot better than ground up shell and small areas right nex to real shell will not be noticed.

Tips...best to paintin the backgrd with gold or silver PearlEx first...then mix small transparent batchs of the 2-3 colours needed... fill the cracks with clear add colours with tooth pick and swirl a bit, let cure.

Pearl Ex is about $10 a half oz....goes a long long way... however if you search the net, you will find a similar product and companies that offer package deals of 40 or 50 or 60 different coulours... sort of lik a sample kit...for cheap...last a life time in our field.

Oh Ya and once you have used these mica powders...you will see the potental of them in sunburst and other fancy effects.


blesings
the
padma
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
The standard practice in inlay is to use glue colored to match the background wood. I use a small amount of the sanding dust from the wood in my epoxy. This will all but disappear with ebony. Lighter colored woods will be more difficult to match.

In my opinion, filling the gaps with ground pearl will make them stand out like a sore thumb. Just the opposite of what you want.
Author:  ayavner [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
Well, maybe "gaps" is the wrong word... in a thin scripty logo, there's a point where the line becomes too thin to be able to cut a piece to fit, so the gap i am referring to is actually continuity in the line, not so much gaps around the edges etc.

Another thing i thought of would be to peel a layer off the ablam lamination, to where it would be easy to cut it into a thin sliver with an exacto, then lay that over the top of some epoxy just kinda riding the surface of the line?

I'm only talking about small areas maybe 1/16" to 1/8" here n there.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
I think that I would choose my script and inlay patterns with cutting in mind, though if you have the inlay CNC cut it can be thinner. I find that as I get more experience I get braver. I think a well thought out and applied simple inlay will always look better than a poorly done complicated one.

Just one builder's opinion.
Fred
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
When first cutting out your inlay, glue (white glue is fine) the material on something more ridgid like plywood or hardwood and than cut it out. Heck, you could even use a heavy card board if that's what you have.
Also, when cutting smaller sections, don't try and cut to the line, but leave yourself a bit of wiggle room. After you've cut out the basic shape you can use micro files to get to the line, then some fine sandpaper if you want. Less stress on the material and you most likely won't break it.

Once you have your piece cut out, put it in hot water (boiling is fine) and the glue will soften and the piece will float off of the backing board. Don't try and pry it off, you'll only break the piece. Just let the hot water do the job, be patient.

Make sure you have clearance in the channel where the piece goes and don't force the piece into place, you'll only break it.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
A thin layer of ablam on top of the glue will not give you enough thickness to work with and will likely get sanded away during leveling.
Author:  ayavner [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
I was thinking on top of the glue, but slightly under the surface, to allow for sanding.
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
Don't fill any voids where there is suppose to be inlayed material with anything other than the material intended to be there. That's my suggestion.

Cut the inlay right (even if it takes you 10 tries) and you won't be disapointed. Inlay artists routinly cut pieces as small or smaller than what you're talking about, so it can be done.

There are no short cuts ;)
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
Let's see a picture. But it sounds like a design error to me . When Larry Robinson does signatures in his videos he uses gold because it's easier to do thin pieces then shell. It can be done with shell but if Larry finds it tricky that should tell you something. It does me. :D You should get Larry's tapes/DVDs if you are going to be serious about inlay. Well worth the money. I bought them and took a class by Amy Hopkins(I think Amy learned from Dave Nichols of Custom Pearl Inlay) over at MIMF years ago and have never regretted it.
Author:  ayavner [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
Here's a pic. Its basically a combination of my last initial "Y" and the treble clef. I took it to my friend Dave at Etch-a-Tech and had him engrave it with his laser machine to .050 based on the drawing I made. The thin lines are the ones I am concerned about. Guess you could say its a design flaw, but I do like it [headinwall]
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
How wide are the lines? I think you put the cart before the horse. And are trying to run before you can walk. You should cut the pieces first and make the channel from them or the drawing. You can cut the lines and open up the channel if you need too. Maybe get your friend to use the laser to cut the pearl? Using the veneer backing can help sometimes and you can cut shell pretty thin but it's hard to do by hand. Practice makes perfect. If it was easy everyone would be doing it. You are going to have to put in the hours and hours of cutting like the rest of us. Or get a CNC and put in the hours the learn the software and machining skills. :)
Me, I'd cut the lines as thin as I could and re-cut the channel to the pieces. Take it slow and approach it a piece at a time.
Author:  Rod True [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
I seem to recall people saying that lasers and pearl (shell material) don't mix.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
You probably are correct Rod. I think I remember reading something as it not being a good choice.
Author:  ayavner [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
Chris,

I haven't measured the lines just yet, but eyeballing it looks as though that super thin strip you have there would probably work. The design was cut directly from the drawing, it was imported and "printed" directly off his PC at full size. But, I agree, this is one of those things I probably could have considered in the design phase.

I'll see how thin I can get it and if that doesn't work, will try to widen the channel to accomodate.

Whats likely going to happen, just by looking is that i will get a couple of runs on the straight lines with perhaps a small section where it is broken and needs to be filled somehow to maintain the flow of the line. But, it may be that it can get that thin, judging by the piece you are holding in your hand - what did you use to cut that with?

adam
Author:  ayavner [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
Rod True wrote:
I seem to recall people saying that lasers and pearl (shell material) don't mix.



Actually for a lark, while we were messing around, i gave him a pearl fretboard dot to see if he could cut in half, and he cut it pretty well but the edge where it was cut kinda powdered up and smelled like burnt hair. Now, this is paua ablam and not pearl, so don't know if that changes anything or not.
Author:  Rod True [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
Again, this is only based on what I've read over the years on the guitar maker forums. But any type of shell will do just what you said and you won't get a clean edge as if it were cut on a CNC.

Looks like Chris glued the shell to a backing board and I bet he used a #1 or 2/0 saw blade to cut it. Re-read my post about this and the files and sandpaper. It just takes a lot of practice and patience to get those small pieces right. Nice thing with abalam or abalone is that even if you get a small break, after you do a final sanding you'll have a hard time seeing the breakline.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
You would be better off cutting it that thin from shell. The abalam will break easier for sure.
I cut that piece with a band saw. :P But I was using my jig.
I hope you have a good solid cutting board and use thin fine blades like 2/0 or finer . You might try gluing the abalam to a veneer backing about .040" the complete size of the inlay and then glue the drawing over the abalam and drill some holes into the work for pierce cuts. Then cut away and soak the pieces later like Rod said.
Another option is to leave some space around the shell pieces and color the shell edges black and pack the lines with black epoxi or dyed black baking soda and pack the soda into the spaces and channel and CA it in. But that's only if the channel walls are smooth. Or use what ever color you want to use to dye the baking soda.
Author:  ayavner [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
Thanks, you guys are the best!

I'll be sure and post a pic when i finish... for the record, I am not in any way opposed to spending the hours/days it takes to get this done right, so it'll be good, you'll see :D

thanks again for all the advice!!

adam
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
As an inlay guy I can tell that you are sweating on the small stuff. Gaps are part of the process and knowing how to close them is what makes the artist . I also learned from Dave Nichols . Trying to fill the voids can actually make them appear more prominent . There are 2 ways to do this , color fill with with glue and dye or dust and glue.
I prefer the glue and dye method. Of this there are 2 methods , epoxy or CA. I prefer the CA. You take a magic marker that is the same color as the wood. You color up the pearl surface and spray that with accelerator and let dry. After it dries you flow on the CA and let set a minute then hit it with the accelerator. Check for bubbles and reapply the ca. It isn't that hard. I use this as a demo to show how easy it can be.
As you get more experience you will gain skills I never was a fan of dust and glue as this makes for a matrix and the surface of it can make a halo appearance. The translucency of the glue helps to blend this all together.
Author:  ayavner [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
Spent a few hours working on this last nite, and think I might have answered at least part of my own question..

I have a water grinder from another hobby, stained glass. I found that by holding the strip of ablam against the wheel with one finger and drawing it through with the other, I was able to get a nice thin strip similar to Chris's above, and mic'd it at about .025 which is what I needed. I think I might be able to go thinner with some practice, but I was able to fill the thin groove going up the center.

I'll post more pics as I go along, I am enjoying this thread and learning lots.

adam
Author:  ayavner [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
Well, as promised, here is a picture of the inlay now that I am done with it. I wiped it down with a damp rag to help it stand out against the wood a bit better.

Thanks to this thread and others, as well as tons of mistakes, I learned alot in the process and really look forward to doing this more and improving with time and practice.

I know its not the best thing anyone's ever seen, but I think its pretty good for my first try, and its pretty much what I wanted.

Thanks again everyone!

adam
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: filling small gaps in paua inlay?
Looks really good! [:Y:]
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