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Routers-new opinions?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23810		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Cocephus [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Routers-new opinions?
Howdy All,
The biggest hindrance I have thus far with keeping up to my expectations as a builder is the right router for the right job.
I`ve worn out a couple Craftsmans (through flat-out hard work), been aggravated at Skil with thier plastic parts and burnt out switches. Rotozip is fine for certain situations, but too tall and top-heavy (and really no proper way to attatch a baseplate).
Dremels are OK, but I`ve worn those out in the process of figuring out what they can take. BTW- Beware of the Dremel 300 series as far as the motor lock button goes as they are made from aluminum and if you get your finger close to it, it will shear off the lock pin and you`re SOL until you deal with it. DAMHIKT.
It`s high time I invested in a good workhorse that I can use for different operations without too much difficulty.
I know how to treat them, but it seems as though anything I buy nowadays will wear out or self-destruct as soon as the warranty is up :(
In a nutshell, is the PC 310 still the way to go?
It`s been a while since the router discussions were around, so let`s re-hash the latest opinions.
Coe Franklin
Author:  Randolph [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
This ought to be a very interesting topic. I'm with you on being baffled about router longevity. I can't seem to find any that will stand up to industrial use for longer than about a month. Two years ago I bought 7 Bosch routers (can never have too many). Within two weeks 3 of them were out with bad bearings, switches. Within another two weeks there was only one left working. Tech supports answer was a repair on them that was more expensive than a new one costs. Needless to say I have never bought another Bosch product, but I still can't find a manufacturer that holds up. Any ideas? I'm afraid to try Festool and spend that much just to find out the hard way that they are nearly as bad.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
Never had a bad PC. Had one that lasted 15 years before I dropped it. Another that is still going strong after 10 hard years. Never had a 310 though. 7310's for laminate trimmer and 690's for 1/2" capacity. I won't buy another Bosch. I also have a Milwaukee (5616 maybe) that's been very good but I've only had it about a year. Good luck.
Author:  Cocephus [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
Kent,
I`ve been eyeing the 690, but isn`t a bit bulky for the lighter end of things like binding channels, truss rod slots, and the occasional slots on headstocks?
Does the 7310 have the power while keeping close tolerance?
To All,
Is the shaft size the step that determines Laminate Trimmer (1/4") and Router (1/2")?
I realize that RPM`s and Amperage come into play, but where to make the assumption?
Author:  TonyKarol [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
I have 7 of the 7310s .. they are great IMO. I can swap motors with different bits into different bases and jigs way too easy. Big wood show in Woodstock Canada in a couple weeks, will likely get another if the price is right. the very first one I bought about 8-9 years ago is still going strong. They are about 1/4 HP, plenty for all things guitar.

lam trimmers IMO are usually defined as small enough to use one handed, as in trimming HP laminate off countertops or cabinets with a flush trim bit.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
Cocephus wrote:
Kent,
I`ve been eyeing the 690, but isn`t a bit bulky for the lighter end of things like binding channels, truss rod slots, and the occasional slots on headstocks?
Does the 7310 have the power while keeping close tolerance?
To All,
Is the shaft size the step that determines Laminate Trimmer (1/4") and Router (1/2")?
I realize that RPM`s and Amperage come into play, but where to make the assumption?


It all depends on how you use them. I use the trimmers for most hand held operations. Most of the time I use the bigger ones, they are in my router table, my pin router, or my binding router.

The 7310 has plenty of power for any 1/4" bit I've seen and I've never had a problem with sloppy bearings or any kind of runout. The collet can be sticky though.

As for power and beefiness, in general the 690 will handle anything but the largest bits. For instance, I have a 2 -1/4" long power plane helical cutter mounted on a router bit shaft for pattern cutting necks. That's too big for the 690.
Author:  Darrel Friesen [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
I have a Bosch 1617 EVS. It's been a real workhorse with never a problem in 4 years. I really like the easy release of the bit from the collet as well. Never sticks. Where did you buy yours Randolph and if they were only a few weeks old, why no warranty? Are you making moldings? Just wondering as this seems pretty odd.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
The Bosch Colt at ~$100 is a great deal. Even less if you buy them refurbished. THe PC 310 is still available... just hunt the net. For luthierie work, the Bosch is pretty handy.

Mike
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
Randolph wrote:
This ought to be a very interesting topic. I'm with you on being baffled about router longevity. I can't seem to find any that will stand up to industrial use for longer than about a month. Two years ago I bought 7 Bosch routers (can never have too many). Within two weeks 3 of them were out with bad bearings, switches. Within another two weeks there was only one left working. Tech supports answer was a repair on them that was more expensive than a new one costs. Needless to say I have never bought another Bosch product, but I still can't find a manufacturer that holds up. Any ideas? I'm afraid to try Festool and spend that much just to find out the hard way that they are nearly as bad.


What kind of work are you doing that will burn out routers that fast?
Author:  MRS [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
I use a dewalt DW616K. Similar to a porter cable. All owned by the same company. This replaced a older dewalt that someone stole. I like it a lot. I own a couple of plunge routers but i hate plunge routers. They do have a purpose for certain things but i prefer a fixed base
Image
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
Cocephus wrote:
In a nutshell, is the PC 310 still the way to go?

I have the Bosch Colt, Hitachi M6SB and PC 310 laminate trimmers (as well as Dremels, a few larger routers with plunge bases and a big Bosch in a router table), and my favourite tool for guitar work is the PC 310. The thing is sturdy and squat (in fact, it looks a little R2-D2 :ugeek: ), has the best depth adjustment of the lot, and is built to last a long time. I wish I could afford a few more so I wouldn’t have to switch bases so much, that really gets old.


Kent Chasson wrote:
The 7310 has plenty of power for any 1/4" bit I've seen and I've never had a problem with sloppy bearings or any kind of runout. The collet can be sticky though.

The 310 has a sticky collet too, I just give the shaft of the bit a whack with a collet wrench or something and it pops right out... Anyone have a better method, I'm open for ideas.
Author:  Miketobey [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
Google "Pat Warner." Pat is the real deal-a proven expert on routers. His usual recommendation is DeWalt 625 or 618 for full size. I am in the PC 310 camp for my premium laminate trimmer. I do have 3 7310's in dedicated jigs and they are not far behind the 310.

I, too, am a bit stunned by your Bosch experience. I have two 1617 EVS and they are faultless. Alloy and switch problems are from days of yore.

I have a DeWalt 618 combination and even the plunge is excellent. In my conventional router table I use a PC 890 series with a Jessem FX lift and in the OPR I use a 690 VS on top and the bottom router is a true bargain workhorse Freud FT 2200, 3.25 HP and outfitted with a "Router Raizer."

None of these have taken a dive on me. My StewMac vertical binding jig has the Ridgid laminate trimmer. It is no 310 but is a rugged little guy with interesting accessory bases.Mike T.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
Correct me if I'm wrong but the 310 and the 7310 have both been discontinued. That's why the price keeps going up.
The price of the Colt single speed has gone up where the vari speed has gone down.
Anyone used the Dewalt that looks like the 310. I figured Dewalt discontinued the 7310 since they ripped it off with that look alike.
Author:  Cocephus [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
This is getting to be interesting, gang. Eat Drink
Coe
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
I also have a 3hp. 5625 Milwaukee for my router table that I'm happy with. And a PC 690 for years and Two 310, 7310 and a single speed Colt that I haven't used but once so far.
Author:  Randolph [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
The routers I got were mostly the 1617EVS model. I have one left that is operational. I do admit they were subjected to what I would call "heavy" use - daily cabinetmaking. There were no large bits, some mouldings and a lot of trimming. The place I got them from (a tool store in San Jose) would not take them back and said I had to send them into Bosch myself, which I did. After doing this more than once on most of these (mind you this is over a very short period of time) I realized that the shipping alone was adding up. On a couple of them they said they would no longer replace the bearings under warranty gaah By this time I was livid and no longer a fan of Bosch. I asked the guy in the tool store what was happening because my old Bosch tools (which have now been around for almost 20 years with the same type of use). He said that they had switched to manufacturing them in China (not Germany) and this is the result.
Anyway, I am wondering how many of the tool manufacturers have made this switch to cheaper parts etc.. It does seem to me that a tool can be made to stand the test and to last for years. Guitar work is considerably less demanding on tools than cabinet and furniture making but nonetheless I am not a fan of this new trend.

What I'm using now are Dewalt DW 6184 routers (not too bad except the housing sticks quite a bit when trying to do height adjustment) and the Porter Cable 1001-72 (which is also not too bad except the plastic housing on them keeps cracking). These are minor compared to bearings freezing up or switches going out constantly. I'm loving the suggestions. Keep them coming.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
Yep, I had bearings go out on my bosch too. Except it took mine 13 months...a month past the warranty period.
Author:  truckjohn [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
I get the feeling that your duty cycle may be a *Wee* bit more aggressive than most of us here....

It sounds like the Router you will end up with is going to be *Very* expensive and the sort you can't purchase at a normal Home Store or place like that... as basically ALL home store routers are sold for the "Home improvement" or "Contractor" market... and you basically need the "100% Duty Cycle" model... like the sort that Kraft Maid uses in their factory...

It's kinda like trying to use a Jeep winch on a Tow truck... A winch that will last 30 years on a Jeep will last about 3-months on that tow truck.

Good luck on your quest.

John
Author:  Daniel Minard [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
My Bosch 1617 had the switch fail after less than six hours use. Otherwise, I love the tool. The best depth adjustment I've found & smooth as silk to run.
Pretty disappointing to hear they have fallen for the Made In China trap.
Author:  Randolph [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
truckjohn wrote:
I get the feeling that your duty cycle may be a *Wee* bit more aggressive than most of us here....


No doubt you're right about this. By the way, I have dedicated routers and trimmers (4) total Dewalt and Porter Cable for guitar building. These are in my guitar studio where no one else can get their hands on them. No problems with them so far and it's been 2 1/2 years. We have dedicated tools (especially routers) for install work and they get trashed very fast. I've never been able to figure a way out of this one. There's just not good enough control over your environment there. In the shop, on the other hand, you do and even though there's no misuse of these tools they do get worked. Whats frustrating is that I know they are plenty capable of building a tool that will last because I have a bunch of them. The idea that a tool should last doesn't seem to be too good for business these days. The shift in ideals is disturbing to me. I'll just keep looking.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
Chris Paulick wrote:
....... Anyone used the Dewalt that looks like the 310.


Chris, which model is this?
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
That should have been 7310 and this one:
http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-D26670K-He ... 908&sr=8-1
Just the router and not the kit.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
This sounds like a question for routerforums.com

You might also try cnczone.com... lots of heavy-use router exxperience over there.


Mike

One more thing: Have you considered pneumatic routers for your heavy duty stuff?
Author:  Cocephus [ Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Routers-new opinions?
I want to thank all who responded to this thread and hope that others have gained a little insight on which way to go with router choice.
I finally decided on the PC 7310 and actually found it cheaper on Ebay (that`s new including 3-year warranty) than at most suppliers.
It`s about time I made this step and bought a router that I can dedicate to guitar building and for nothing else. No more taking the specialized tools out to the job-site. bliss
I still have the Skil router for that sort of stuff.
I also went to Woodcraft and ordered the Woodriver rabbeting set. I wanted to go with the Whitesides set, but alas, they only have them in 1/2" shank. Good?
I do have a couple questions about the size increments, so shall I post another thread on that topic? It would make sense to me so that others may be able to find it in the archives at a later date.
Thanks alot Y`all
Coe Franklin
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