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Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
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Author:  Brock Poling [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
I am curious about something. For all you guys mainly building classicals, is it sacrilege to use steel string methods (mold vs. solera), M/T or Dovetail necks vs. the Spanish heel style construction? Is that the mark of a clueless amateur in classical builder circles?

I am not thinking about switching from steel string to classical, but I am curious about them an might give one a go. I am sure i can do it using steel string construction, but I am curious about how that is perceived.

Thanks.
Author:  Christian Schmid [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
Hi Brock,
I'm no expert, I've heard that some (famous) classical builders use dovetail neck joints, bolt-on necks, and I'm sure some use a mold. Some players sure care about "traditional" style, while others care about the end result - a guitar that sounds and plays great.

However, if you're just curious and want to build one, I'd definitely build traditional style - solera and spanish heel. It's such a different experience and process, and if you've never worked that way it'll only broaden your horizon as a builder.

My first was a classical built with solera and spanish heel, and I really thoroughly enjoyed the process. I found it more organic than building the body and neck seperately and if the string tension wasn't so high on steel strings, I'd build them the same way.

my $.02...cheers, Christian
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
Nothing wrong about using whatever method you want. In fact one of the most famous builders, Fleta, used a dovetail neck attachment. There are other, far more important issues to address when coming from the SS world, but if you follow or inspect a couple good plans carefully, no problems...

Building a solera is not a big deal, and you can also sandwich a mold on top of it (like I do, and others). I think it gives the best of both worlds. The solera is excellent for achieving the desired neck geometry. I think it is probably easier than with a dovetail.

Somewhat related, yesterday, and today, by 2 different makers, i saw 2 classicals with the same FB edge-string clearance as for steel strings..... [headinwall]...completely unplayable...A nice solid clearance for the high e string is at least five mm!!
Author:  woody b [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
The guy that I took guitar lessons from when I was a kid (I'm 45 now) built a few steel strings but mainly Classicals. He used an outside mold and a Dovetail neck.
Author:  Brent Hutto [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
My mid-70's Japanese-built classical is somewhat Fleta influenced and it has what is in reality a dovetail neck joint but disguised with what looks at first glance like a Spanish heel visible when you look through the soundhole. Its design is by Kohno, considered one of the best of the 1st-generation Japanese makers.
Author:  Imbler [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
Alexandru,
Could you share some details on how you marry a mold with the solara on a classical? I would like to pursue that path, but don't see how it would work,
thanks, Mike
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
I came across this link the other day, 1924 Hauser guitar with dove tail neck joint.
http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com/files/hauser.htm

Fred
Author:  Brock Poling [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
I have been looking at te Boganovich book (which I really enjoy). I really bought it for simple curiousity, but the more I read the more I think I would like to try one of these.

Thanks for the thoughts
Author:  MRS [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
I think classicals are built the way they because it more with keeping with traditions. Not knocking classical music because i do like it but its a style of music thats based on music writen hundreds of years ago. So why change the method that was used on early classical guitars? Traditions are hard to break. I don't think building a classical with steal string techniques could hurt the sound. Who knows maybe it may improve it.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
As long as the instrument looks, feels, and sounds the same (or better) what's the difference?

I'm currently building (nearly finished in fact) my first classical build, doing it the way I think it should be built, which is a mixture of traditional and modern build techniques. It's going to have a M/T neck joint with a single bolt that is almost invisible (to all but the most curious observer). The neck block inside the guitar looks exactly like a Spanish heel design. I don't see how the construction method has any bearing or relevance as far as class or professional status goes. Execution - yes, but method - no.

FWIW, I read the Bogdanovich book (which is a Hauser derivative) and used parts of it as a guide for some design aspects (like the bracing patterns), but I also used a copy of the Brune dimensioned drawings of the Segovia 1937 Hauser and studied everything else I could find on classical guitar design and construction before I started. In the end, I chose to use the go-bar deck with dishes construction method, with the aforementioned disguised M/T bolt-on neck. I got my mold and side bending patterns from John Hall (Blues Creek Guitars) - they are spot on as far as shape/size goes. It seemed to me like the most sensible way to proceed with a classical guitar build. Traditional construction methods are not always the best or most efficient - this is true of steel string acoustic guitar construction also, right?

Dave F.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
There is a builder of really nice classical guitars here in NC, that uses a mold an bolt on necks. His guitars are very nice. He builds both a Hauser inspired version and a Humphrey Millennium style. His name is Steven Walter, and here is his website - http://www.stevenwalterguitars.com/

Bogdanovich has a good method, of incorporating the two processes, but the one thing I see wrong with his process is his method of matching the sides to the top. It would be much easier if he left the sides square, and fit them to the outside of the tops edge (Romanillos method) rather than trying to match that slope.

Either way, though, I wouldn't hesitate to build the way you are comfortable with.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
Imbler wrote:
Alexandru,
Could you share some details on how you marry a mold with the solara on a classical? I would like to pursue that path, but don't see how it would work,
thanks, Mike


My mold simply has a 64mm opening to allow the neck to get through. The standard neck width is 62mm so I can easily eye-ball center it. When all is aligned decently I clamp neck, top and mold halves to the solera and then insert the sides. So actually even if it looks like a SS mold it is much more similar to the traditional system with posts/stops.
Author:  Imbler [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
Thanks Alexandru, I think I see how you do it, except for one detail. When you clamp the mold to the solera it seems like it would be clamped on the sound board, or do you shim the mold to avoid that?
I'm thinking about perhaps routing a clearance for the soundboard in the bottom of the mold, and then having some pre-drilled holes to bolt it onto the solera after the neck and soundboard are in place. That would probably work better for me than clamps (less things for me to bump!)
Mike
Author:  Jim Watts [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
Brock, it'll work. I build a Fleta style guitar this way. I use a glued in m&t with a negative neck angle, the finger board gets tapered from the 12 fret forward.
I'm sure you'll find it a great experience.
Author:  caribou [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
As already said there are no sacrilège in building a classical guitar with a tenon/mortise neck and a mold instead of a solera.
The spanish heel and the solera are the traditionnal spanish way but there were lot of luthiers (especially Hauser) who open the way for another building methods.
I made a classic with an alternative method of assembly, a spanish heel but I glued the back first, that was a nice way too, the only main point is the result ;)
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
Mick,
I used to trim it to shape until it fit nicely in (a bit of a chore) but now that you mention a shim , some 3mm plywood shoudl work great - it sounds like a good ideea.

Whatever you do, make sure the solera mold shim etc is well shellacked or waxed, there is always some glue escaping and you don't want the guitar glued in. It is not fun to pry it loose, don't ask me how I know :D
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
You have to put this stuff in context. The 'traditional' Spanish method, using a solera, is a 'hand tool mass production' technique. According to Romanillos, each maker in a shop would use a number of workboards, which could be clamped in a vice on one corner of a large central bench when in use. When a particular step was completed, the work board was taken out of the vice, and put over in the corner for the glue to dry. Another work board, with another guitar on it, was put in the vice, and work continued. The work boards were quite heavy, and the bench was more a place to stash tools that were not being used, and hold the glue pot, than a place to work. Four builders could work on one bench.

With the work board ensuring proper alignment of the neck in all directions a critical, and time consuming, part of the process was taken care of in advance. Putting in tentellones is a bit time consuming, but relatively mindless.

The dovetail neck is, itself, partly a response to a felt need, and partly 'tradition'. My impression is that dovetails were a lot more common in Central and Eastern Europe than in Spain, which was, in some eras, something of an 'outlier' in the guitar world. In a production setting the use of a plugged-in neck of some sort has the distinct advantage of taking up less space: Chris Martin once said to me that if they used the Spanish heel, they'd have to make the plant twice a big to allow room to swing the guitars. A joke with a hint of truth in it, I'm sure. There are also advantages in being able to finish the neck and body seperately, and even so small a detail as cutting the binding rabbet is easier when the neck is off. OTOH, if you wrap the guitar with rope to clamp the bindings, that's easier when the neck is held firmly in a vice.

In the end, there are lots of good ways to build guitars. To paraphrase pilots, any way that results in a playable instrument is a good one.

Two phrases to keep in mind when working on classical guitars:
"Think Treble" and "Simplicate, and add in more Lightness"
Author:  Imbler [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
Quote:
Whatever you do, make sure the solera mold shim etc is well shellacked or waxed, there is always some glue escaping and you don't want the guitar glued in. It is not fun to pry it loose, don't ask me how I know



Good advice - I can see that happening! :D
thanks, Mike
Author:  Ray Pepalis [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
In my opinion, a Classical Guitar has the Spanish Heel construction, 12th fret to the neck, no Abalone, no fingerboard binding etc.
I matters not whether it is built using a Swiss Army knife, traditional methods, or CNC machining.
Anything else is a Nylon string guitar - what's wrong with that?

Ray
Author:  muthrs [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
Brock,

I built a classical for my daughter using a spline joint for the neck so that I could finish it separately. I believe a number of builders do this. No dovetail, no bolts. I pretty much used the same techniques I use for steel strings, including a Spanish foot that is integral with the head block. I also use an adjustable solera for all my builds. They are so lightly built compared to steel strings that it felt like I was building a toy. A woman, who brought her guitar teacher along, wanted to buy it at Montreal, but alas it was my daughter's and not for sale.
Author:  Colin S [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
Brock you can build a 'classical' guitar any way you want that achieves your desired end result.

What you can't do is build a Spanish guitar with a bolt on neck etc. I build Spanish guitars, so build as near as possible to the Spanish tradition after Torres, and only played Spanish music on them. Don't confuse Spanish guitars with Classical guitars, though not mutually exclusive, they are not necessarily the same.

Colin
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
Reading all this has been so interesting I have just ordered "Classical Guitar Making: A Modern Approach to Traditional Design" by John Bogdanovich and "The Art And Craft Of Making Classical Guitars" by Manuel Rodríguez. I love the sound of a Classical or Spanish or nylon string or whatever we feel it needs to be called guitar. I guess this means I will build one in the next 3 or 4 guitars.

I am a book lover from way back, thus a sucker for something new to read and learn.

Fred
Author:  Dave_E [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
What a coincidence this disscussion comes up now. I'm planning my next classical build and it is going to be anything but traditional. Building the box the steel string way with a bolt on neck at 1.5 dgrees, traditional classical bracing with the addition of a transverse brace up forward (like on a steel string top) adding a bridge brace to the top bracing and using ball end nylon high tension strings and it will also have a truss rod. Your average classical doesn't have a 4" body so that's where I'm taking this one. Can't see where any of this construction is going to have a major impact on the playability or the sound. But like all ideas... we'll have to wait and see. [:Y:]

Dave
Author:  Steve Davis [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
I did Solera, shimmed mold with gap for the neck and it worked fine
As for no bling on a classical I pretty much agree
but
FE08 ?
or check out Agustin Barrios' guiter here
http://www.mangore.com/mangore_guitar.html
Author:  Brock Poling [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Sacrilege, an opinion question
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Okay Brock, spill the beans ... what are you jonesing to build beehive

Filippo


I don't know that I have any specific plans. I have just been interested in doing something a bit off the beaten path, and I think it is a way to stretch a bit as a guitar builder. It takes me out of my comfort zone.

This has been a very interesting discussion. I never even considered fb binding would be a consideration.
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