I hadn't considered the grain oreintation issue
...makes plenty of sense though. I'll order some (I'm sure it's cut properly), and try bending purpose-cut stuff from LMI or Stewart Mac.
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| Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23693 |
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| Author: | Jake Archer [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
My dad and I are building our 10th guitar - a Padauk/engelmann drednaught - and we are making decent progress, having been at it for only a couple weeks. I would like to trim the guitar out with ebony binding. My experience with ebony binding (bloodwood too, for that matter, another wood I'd like to bind with) has been bad. We use a homemade Fox-esque bender like the one LMI offers for our primary side bending operations, and we also have a propane torch/pipe setup for bending other things (florentine cutaways, etc.). We have tried several different things with bending strips of ebony left from fretboard trimming. We've soaked it for a while, we've barely wet it with a spray bottle, we've tried both the fox and pipe benders...it just wants to crack (bloodwood too for that matter). I can't seem to figure it out. I know it can be done, cumpiano uses it in his book, and Alex Willis uses it in his book too, not to mention the countless boutique instruments made with ebony binding. I hope one of the more veteran builders here can maybe help me with this procedure. I also plan to continually update the forum, probably in 10-14 day intervals on this drednaught, as I am wanting to really go all out on this one to make it special. |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
Jake, Things that made ebony work for me: Bending blanket Keep the bindings thin SuperSoft II veneer softener HTH Pat |
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| Author: | Jake Archer [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
Pat I appreciate the advice. How thin should the ebony be in relation to say, maple or walnut binding? The ebony I've been experimenting with is the same dimensions as what LMI sends out with thier maple bindings. |
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| Author: | woody b [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
I suspect the grain orentation in the fingerboard strips may not be ideal for bending. I've used Ebony binding on 3 guitars with no problems. I thin it to .075". I use supersoft 2 now but I just sprayed it with water the first time I used Ebony. I bend it in my homemade bender with alot of heat. (340 F) I've found that it glues up better if I leave it in the bender for a couple days. I used Bloodwood once. It bent easy enough, but when I took it out of my bender it was almost straight. I bent it again, cooked it for 30 minutes after it was bent, and left it in the bender for a week. (probably overkill). Good luck. |
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| Author: | Jake Archer [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
I hadn't considered the grain oreintation issue ...makes plenty of sense though. I'll order some (I'm sure it's cut properly), and try bending purpose-cut stuff from LMI or Stewart Mac. |
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| Author: | matthewrust [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
I've only bent 8 strips, but have had no issues. It isn't like maple in that you need to go nice and slow. I use a propane torch and pipe with a couple of light spritzes of water here and there. I have a set with w/b on the edge that I get to tackle here in a few days and I'll try to report back whether I have any issues with the laminate splitting. |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
Jake Archer wrote: Pat I appreciate the advice. How thin should the ebony be in relation to say, maple or walnut binding? The ebony I've been experimenting with is the same dimensions as what LMI sends out with thier maple bindings. I take them down to .070 - .065. I prefer the look of thin bindings anyway. Pat |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
They bend fine at 08 too, but with the following precautions: keep the iron at very high setting, and most important, press only very close to the tangent point. If you press farther away and lever them, they will snap for sure. Use a couple sticks to press well and close up, it is impossible to do with the bare fingers (hot stuff) I am also wiping them with a moist rag from time to time, although I doubt it is of much importance. It is the heat and the special pressing that do the trick. |
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| Author: | Sondre [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
Jake, I posted a similar thread not too long ago. Here's the link http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23139. I got lots of great advice in the thread! I found that it was really important to keep one finger pressing firmly right at the tangent point, and like Alexandru said, it was best to bend as close to the tangent point as possible. It also helped a lot to back up the binding with an old bandsaw blade. Use thick gloves!! |
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| Author: | JasonMoe [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
I have found that bending 2 of them at the same time works good, plus you save time. I tape them side to side with tape about 3-4" apart. So it's like 1 fat strip. Higher heat seems to help too. |
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| Author: | JasonMoe [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
I have found that bending 2 of them at the same time works good, plus you save time. I tape them side to side with tape about 3-4" apart. So it's like 1 fat strip. Higher heat seems to help too. |
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| Author: | woody b [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
Quote: Use a couple sticks to press well and close up, it is impossible to do with the bare fingers (hot stuff) Get yourself a pair of welding gloves. Not just leather gloves but real welders gloves. It won't take long to get used to them, and no more burns. |
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| Author: | Jake Archer [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
Wow...thank you all for the tips! I really appreciate it! I personally have not bent a side or binding (or anything for that matter) with our pipe system, so that in and of itself will be a curve for me...but we never stop learning, right? It sounds like the pressure right on the heat like you all have suggested is really important, so this probably rules out my fox bender  Its so great to have such wonderful help here...you guys are always my first stop when it comes to finding answers for my questions. |
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| Author: | old man [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
I've used ebony and bloodwood several times and they both bend fairly well. The first ten strips of ebony that I bent were in a fox style bender with light bulbs. Very slow but it worked. I now use a blanket. I bent 5 strips of bloodwood and 5 strips of ebony this week in my bender with blanket and nary a crack. I bent at around .08, taped all strips together, wrapped in Kraft paper and wet it down. Bent it just like I bend sides. It won't be much of a problem to make the bends for a dreadnaught. (I nearly always bend 5 strips at a time, just in case one cracks) I've been worried a lot about bending snakewood binding cause it seems so brittle, but I also bent 5 strips of it without mishap. Ron |
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| Author: | Jeremy Douglas [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
Why not just use black plastic? Under the finish pore filled black solid black ebony and black boltaron look exactly the same unless you hold a light right up to the binding. I just pulled my guitar out of the case. It has a ebony butt wedge and black boltaron binding. Holding the guitar in my hands it looks like the exact same material. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Starting big number 10, question about ebony binding...how? |
That's why I use ebony with stripes for bindings. |
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