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| How do you get gapless wooden bindings? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23679 |
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
Hey all, I am into Build II, and about to start binding it. Looking and thinking about the last one and how long it took to fit the wood binding to the channel.... it occurred to me again that the Binding pieces need to be a 3-d shape bend... The curves go both up/down as well as around the body form... Bending the body outline shape on the side bender is easy enough... but I remember last time that it was quite a PITA to get the binding bent and fitted into that channel correctly. I believe my Walnut binding strips for the back started at ~1/2" or 3/4" tall to make sure I got the dome curve right.... and I am guessing this one will be worse because I built in a dish.... There has got to be some easier way to do this then all the hand fitting, sanding, and planing until it fits in with only a couple small gaps... or do you just fit it by pure brute force... just sand till it goes? Thanks John |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
Brute force and strong glue!  Not so! You need to have things close enough that you can push in place with your fingers, or at least, that's my understanding. If you can push easily into place, it goes fairly well, though my current build is giving me fits. Bloodwood bindings - if you think Zircote is crack wood. Seems my last build was the same. Lacewood likes to break while bending too. |
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| Author: | Allen McFarlen [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
I make my bindings to fit without a lot of force. As Waddy said, just a bit of finger pressure. I also make them just barely oversize, to what I want them to end up being. Easier to scrape down a little binding material, rather than sides or top and back to get them level. I use hide glue to attach them. A few pieces of binding tape to hold them in place, then cinch everything tight with twill tape. Have a look at Robbie O'Brien's video on this. |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
I have no problem fitting the wood bindings bent only to the guitar outline. I glue with Titebond watered down a little to get me a little more working time. The worst shaped back was the Manzer wedge, sloped in 2 directions and the curly maple was not a great problem to hold into the ledge while I taped with the StewMac binding tape. I then wound 1/4" cotton chord around the body to make sure nothing moved while the glue was setting up. That said binding is still a bit of a pain to do for me but it comes out good. I have done 4 guitars with curly maple and 1 with ebony, each gets easier to do than the one before but I still don't enjoy binding. It is a point where a good guitar can become great or bad depending on how it is executed. I think I may try CA to glue the binding on the next one. Fred |
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
What I did on that 1st one was to carefully plane and sand the bent bindings to basically match the contour of the routed groove. This is why they had to start off so big..... I did plane them down till they were only a little proud... It was a funny looking 3D shape -- curved around and up/down... but I used doubled painters tape to hold them... and they fit with only a few small gaps... I am looking to do this one better, though... So, Todd -- you are saying that you start with just a "Standard" binding stick (maybe 0.020" - 0.030" oversize) bent in the side bender to the outline of the guitar... then just rubber band them into the groove with 10-million rubber bands? I was kinda concerned that they wouldn't cooperate nicely going over the up-down curves, especially at the waist. I may have to try this out... as it may save me a bunch of time.... and it is far simpler than my other way... Thanks John |
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| Author: | george wilson [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
I always bend the bindings a bit too far when making the binding strips. This is to help keep the bindings from pulling away from the waist in years to come. Curving them too much puts pressure on the waist so the binding stays tight there. |
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| Author: | DannyV [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
Sanding or scraping a bevel into the inside corner of the binding will keep it from riding up in the corner of the channel. Good luck. Danny |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
First off, .070" bindings are a lot easier to work with than .090" as well as shorter rather than taller (I think they look better too). I hand bend my bindings on a hot iron to the same profile as the sides i.e. to a template thats 2mm smaller than the final profile of the instrument. Hand bending eliminates any spring back and allows you to precisely pre-fit. I use fish glue for attachemnt which gives more "open" time as well as using a very small exacto miter box and razor saw to trim the ends which I usually butt join. |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
What David said... I bend mine at 0.08 on the iron and glue them with fish. After scraping they are 07. The working height is about 5mm (1/5") plus the purfling, after scraping I want the binding+purfling to b less than 1/5. First of all I think that in most cases it looks much better when not too tall. I also scrape the inner edge a little (even if I make sure I chisel and clean out all proud bits and ends), same goes for the final 2/3 of the width of the bottom, this last one helps against gaps caused by the "doming effect". If you want wide binding you can always start the top/back purfling with a similarly colored veneer or 2. From a distance you don't see the addition while still getting the width effect, and from closeup there is an interesting variation. For example koa+maple, rosewood+bloodwood and so on. Win win win situation. Before actually gluing, a short leftover of binding and purfling seated in, and dragged slowly but firmly should reveal some of the issues that can cause a gap. |
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| Author: | SteveT [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
WaddyThomson wrote: Bloodwood bindings - if you think Zircote is crack wood. Seems my last build was the same. Lacewood likes to break while bending too. Hi Waddy- I feel you pain with dealing bloodwood. I found it impossible to bend bloodwood bindings with a bending iron. Using a Fox-style side bender with a heating blanket worked reasonably well if I didn't try to bend more than 2 at a time. All in all, I cracked as many as I bent. After I got the hang of it, I bent up a stash for future builds. They are clamped to pieces of MDF shaped to the plantilla. -Steve |
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| Author: | L. Presnall [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
How do ya get gapless wooden bindings? Have Lance do 'em! ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up")
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| Author: | the Padma [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
Yo, the truckjohn, Gapless wooden bindings are available but from only select luthiers supply houses. You have to specially ask for them and they cost megga bucks. However they do come with a qualified luthier to make sure they are installed properly. blessings the Padma |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
The Padma is all knowing ... except on spelling the word "slipped" 
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
Alexandru Marian wrote: What David said... I bend mine at 0.08 on the iron and glue them with fish. After scraping they are 07. . I am in this camp too. I bend them at .06" x 3/16" and put them on with LMI white. They are very easy to work at this size and I think the water based glue helps swell the wood and close the gaps up. I use brown tape, then after it is all taped up I use about 50' of surgical tubing as added insurance, particularlly in the waist and the cutaways. |
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| Author: | the Padma [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
TonyKarol wrote: The Padma is all knowing ... except on spelling the word "slipped" Yo, the Tony Thank you for your very kind words flattering me inflated ego. But the truth be known, well the Padma, umm... that wood be me, well him don't know nothing much about luthierizem, or any other of them there 'issums, 'assums, or 'spasums for that matter. Wish me did. Regarding me spelling, ya you right. Is just another one of them lifes "oh well." By the way Tony, that there 18 stringer, double necker is a beauty. Wish me had half your fit and finishin skills. Blessings the Padma PS: This here post was not spell checkerd. . |
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| Author: | mateo4x4 [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
I tried CA with my latest...went pretty well. Used medium so it would cure quick, but not too quick, and didn't get soaked into the sides/top/back too easy. The bummer was nearly gluing myself to it! LOL Still had a few gaps, but I was able to CA and sawdust those and managed to hide 90% or more. -Matthew |
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
0.080"... 0.070"..... 0.060".... Hmmm.... maybe that is a hint.... No one yet has mentioned thicknesses like where I did mine... 0.100" - 0.110" I had no trouble matching the body outline curve... it was getting it to bend up and down that was the problem... I can imagine that they do pull down into the up/down contour much easier at this smaller dimension.... I am installing Mahogany bindings into Qs Red Oak back/sides.. so I am not too worried about unruly behavior in the side bender... I was just thinking that there had to be an easier way on the up/down bends! Thanks John |
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| Author: | J Jones [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
i went to Northern Ireland in the summer and visited the big 3 guitarmakers there (btw if you ever visit N.I i highly recommend looking round all of them), and i have to say they have the most interesting way of binding that I have ever seen, ive never seen it anywhere else, must be all the Guinness... basically, they make an oversized mold and then hammer tapered wedges in to force the binding in really tightly. I cant remember if lowden use it, but both avalon and mcilroy use it and the binding jobs were all immaculate. not tried it personally, and i dont really have the facilities to at the moment, but it seems to have the overall affect the the rope/elastic has, but it is so much quicker. thanks Jonny |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you get gapless wooden bindings? |
It's important to get a good fit for length on the back binding,too tight and the binding will push away from the routed groove,too short and obviously a gap at the joint.Sounds logical and easy to execute. I glue one side,then rope the other side without glue to make sure the fit is correct,unbind and then proceed with gluing the second strip. |
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