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Yeah, I did that....
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23670		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Mike Baker [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Yeah, I did that....
gaah
Image

I've been working on the neck for my first build. Got the fretboard on. Got it trimmed to the neck. Got the position markers in. I was happy. Not a bad afternoon's work. Then I looked closer... gaah
The markers aren't in a straight line, and to top that, I put the 9th fret marker at the 10th. [headinwall]
The question is, do I "fix" it, or leave it? If I leave it, I'll have to explain it everytime someone looks at it. :shock: But can I fix it without pulling the board? I'm afraid to pull the board, because my neck is laminated, and I don't want it coming apart, now or down the road. Someone please shoot me.
Author:  peterm [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Mike Baker wrote:
.... Someone please shoot me.


Where do you live? :lol:

Just drill out the wrong dots and fill them in with an ebony plug and redrill in the correct position. If you watch grain orientation it will be pretty invisible.
Author:  Mike Baker [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
The largest calibre possible. Why do things halfway? And you're about an hour from me, so it would be quick, Filippo.

As for plugging them, I have a tiny square of rosewood left over from the cut off on the end of the board, and that's it. And I've never cut a plug before. I would assume you'd find some brass tubing of appropriate size to make a plug cutter from, but as I said, my rosewood stash is slim. What I do have is a large amount of rosewood shavings. I thought of pulling the markers and filling the holes with rosewood shavings and glue and redrilling. I know this would not be completely invisible, but it might be my best bet, considering what I have available. What do you think? And if I did this, would titebond be o.k. for this?
Author:  the Padma [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Yo, Mike,

now you know why hide glue exists...especially for fret boards.

Options...you could replace the upper off set 7th with a bigger dot. That would take care of that, then string it up as a six string bouzouki (I believe they mark the 10th) Or tune it like a banjo they also mark the 10th but then you would need to narrow the neck from the nut to the 5th on the bass side and double up on the two high strings. Now that would be interesting. A short neck electric banjo that sorta sounds like a guitar. laughing6-hehe Gee, that could be a whole new thing you got going there.

However, me don't thinks thats what you really wanna be hearing .

So you could router out the wood between the frets and replace with new wood. Fill all the pores and stain the sucker jet black to hide the changes in the grain pattern...This is about the only really viable solution me can come up with other than removing the fret board.

If you are afraid to use heat to pull the board, then router or jointer or hand plan it down to around a 32nd or less and then use the heat..and a thin scraper / spatula ... When the fretboard is that thin, the glue will separate long before the heat will ever get into your neck and start delamination.

Or plain it down to a 64, score a new board and remove a 64 and then glue it down.

Building is sort of like rolling on paint...you always gotta make sure the coloured side is showing. Now Mike...be glad you learned the lesson of paying attention at the drill press and not on a jointer or table saw. But Is ok though...me has made a lot worst boo boos than this I tell ya.

Blessings
the
Padma
Author:  Mike Baker [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Thanks, Padma, but I'm not peterm. He'd probably already have this fixed. But again, thanks for the advice and encouragement(and the humour).
As for the drill press, I have none. Hand drill. But about the paying attention part....I've learned enough about what NOT to do on this neck build. You can bet I won't make these mistakes again, fwiw.
Author:  the Padma [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Mike Baker wrote:
Thanks, Padma, but I'm not peterm. He'd probably already have this fixed. But again, thanks for the advice and encouragement(and the humour).


Sorry about that name thing...something to do with paying attention, I did catch it but by the time me corrected it so did you.

Please re read my original post as I offered one other suggestion.


blessings
the
Padma
Author:  Mike Baker [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
the Padma wrote:
Please re read my original post as I offered one other suggestion.


blessings
the
Padma


Yep, and I might go that "route" as a last resort. It's a good idea, but I'd rather not route off my board just yet. If I have to, I have to, but before I do I'm hoping with all the other builders on here, one might offer a different take on it. Or did you mean the banjo thing? :lol: Now there's an idea....
Author:  peterm [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Mike,
you can get a plug cutter from a hardware store. Is the fretboard rosewood? If it is, shavings will make a mess of it.

Here's what you do. Cut a plug right from the fretboard extension underside making sure it doesn't go all the way through and plug that hole with any wood as it wont be seen once on the guitar. The use that plug to cover your mistake(s).
Author:  Frei [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Hey, straight enough for the first! As for #9, magic marker... Eat Drink

No sympathy here, I have to do the same for my neckblock, but at least its all hidden.
Author:  Mike Baker [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Thanks, Peter. I'll visit the hardware stores tomorrow or this weekend for a plug cutter. I don't know if the hardware stores in my rinkydink town will have 'em, but I'll definately give'er a go.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Larry Robinson (the GREAT inlay artist) states that his career started when he drilled a hole through an Alembic bass he was building. It was worth something like $2K over 35 years ago! His boss told him to design an inlay and call it 'planned'! So, follow his lead....drill a new marker for the 9th fret and figure some classy little inlay for the tenth to customize the guitar. Don't use "shavings and glue". For a fix like this they will look hideous! (Yup that means really bad!) If you send me a good quality picture of your fret board I will try and find some EIR of similiar colour and I could cut you a 3/8 inch plug (a few probably) and send them off to you for the cost of postage. But I would consider the inlay option first.

Shane
Author:  Mike Baker [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Frei wrote:
Hey, straight enough for the first! As for #9, magic marker... Eat Drink

No sympathy here, I have to do the same for my neckblock, but at least its all hidden.



Gee, thanks. :lol:
Hidden or not, you'll know. I'm beginning to see what folks are saying when they talk about "knowing where all the mistakes are". Like I said, I won't make these mistakes again, and if I can fix it, the experience is worth it. Oh well, off to bed. Thanks all of you for your help.
Author:  the Padma [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
peterm wrote:
Mike,
Cut a plug right from the fretboard extension underside making sure it doesn't go all the way through .



Peterm...thats a wonderfull idea... cept it brings it back to the chicken and the egg thing...see Mikes gluded the sucker down and ain't in to pulling it.

Now what?

And Mike please don't go be doin no filling with shavings or saw dust on rose wood ... it will always look like its been patched and filled which is far worst than loving up your mistake ten years from now.

Besides, who looks at them frigen dots any ways.

Common dudes ...somebody gotta have a few bits of rose wood to send the dude.


the
Padma
Author:  Mike Baker [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Shane Neifer wrote:
Larry Robinson (the GREAT inlay artist) states that his career started when he drilled a hole through an Alembic bass he was building. It was worth something like $2K over 35 years ago! His boss told him to design an inlay and call it 'planned'! So, follow his lead....drill a new marker for the 9th fret and figure some classy little inlay for the tenth to customize the guitar. Don't use "shavings and glue". For a fix like this they will look hideous! (Yup that means really bad!) If you send me a good quality picture of your fret board I will try and find some EIR of similiar colour and I could cut you a 3/8 inch plug (a few probably) and send them off to you for the cost of postage. But I would consider the inlay option first.

Shane


Thanks for the offer, Shane. It's appreciated. The dots are 6.35mm(Ithink that's 1/4"). I have a 3/4" X 3&6/16" piece of rosewood off of that same board, so if I can find a plug cutter and learn to use it, that should get the job done. And thank you everyone for your advice, encouragement and help. And no, I won't be filling it in with rosewood dust. Thanks for the caution on that. I'd rather leave it like it is than do something that'll probably look worse.
Author:  MRS [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
I would leave it as is. I never pay attention to those fret markers anyway. No matter how well you mask that error with a plug you'll know its there and it will bother you. But then again putting it in the wrong space is bothering you. So i guess it's a lose. lose situation. :)
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Mike, don't feel too bad, you're not the first one to make that mistake. From personal experience I can tell you if the plugs are tight they're almost invisible; at least in ebony anyway. I wouldn't do that for something I was going to sell but if its for you then its up to you. The key is cutting a clean hole and a tight plug which might be hard to do with a hand held drill.
Author:  Alan [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
I like Shane's inlay idea. A small inlay at the 10th would turn the error into a feature.
I doubt that you will get a perfect grain match with a plug, so suspect that it will still be noticeable. However, you could try plugging it and if it didn't turn out the way you want, then do an inlay.
Author:  truckjohn [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Here's something to consider...

Those fretboard dots are very visible to others when playing....
But... NOT to the player! You can't see those fretboard inlay dots when you are playing.

The player keys off of the little side marker dots on the edge of the fretboard.

So long as the side marker dots are in the right positions.... the Player will have no trouble with the guitar!

You could honestly get away with leaving it as-is... or maybe add another dot on the 9th so it is "Proper" ...

I do agree with just "Fancying up" the misplaced 10th marker dot... Make it into a Smiley face or a Skull or something with a little character and you will be OK.

And as to a dot here and there a little off center.... Leave them be.... you did one heck of a nice looking job with a Hand drill! If you try to enlarge those holes by hand... you will mess up the holes real bad -- the drill wants to follow the hole that is already there... If you had a Milling machine... It would be a different discussion.

and Yes.. Side marker dots are very important.

Good luck

John
Author:  Darryl Young [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Shane, you're a heck of a guy! Very nice offer.
Author:  StevenWheeler [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Mike,

Hand held drills and plug cutters don't play nice together. To get a clean plug, you need to drill a hole in a scrap piece of wood just undersized of the o.d. of the plug cutter. Run the plug cutter through that hole. Now you have a guide that you can clamp on top of the rosewood and run the cutter through to make a plug.

Steve
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
A few years ago one of my customers wanted a 'yin-yang' symbol at the fifth fret. I used pearl for the white, and inlaid a thin strip of silver to outline the black half. I sent him a picture via e-mail, and he got all upset: it was oriented in the wrong direction! I never knew that symbol of balance _had_ a direction! Anyway, I had to rout it out and re-do it. In the end it turned out better, but, of course, it was an ebony fingerboard, so that made it easier.

Many moons ago I made a sorta-mandolin for a fellow: a four string shaped like a tiny archtop guitar. They put the dot at the tenth fret: another lesson learned the hard way.
Author:  Rich Schnee [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Mike, that is a fairly easy fix. Remove the wood between the frets just wide enough to remove the fret marker and .030” deep. Make a patch to fill the channel, sand and you are done. The glue lines will follow the grain pattern and you’ll never notice it.
BTW do the same for the fret marker between the 21-22nd fret also?
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Author:  Mike Baker [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Bought the plug cutter today. I'm gonna give this a go. I'll try it on a cheap piece of wood a couple of times just to see how well I can do this. If all goes well, I'll proceed. If not, I'll leave it. I may only replace the 10th fret dot anyway. I'm the one who'll be playing it in the end, and that will agravate the tar out of me. The others, while off center, won't be that big a deal, for me at least. It's a cosmetic issue, not a structural one, and I may just learn to live with those.
Any advice on removing the 10th fret dot? I'm thinking of finding the center and taking a brad point bit slightly smaller than the dot size, putting the brad poiint on the center mark and tapping it wiith a hammer to leave a sort of centerpunch like guide for the bit to follow. I'm hoping the bit will grab the dot and kinda of twist it out for me.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
I like Rich Schnee's idea of removing a rectangular section following the grain between frets 9 and 10, done nicely it will almost surely be less glaring than a plug, although a plug may be just fine. Another option for the off center ones is to re-do them with blocks or some other motif that will completely cover the old dots.

You are not the only one to be doing this by a long shot!
Author:  Haans [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Yeah, I did that....
Just did the same thing on my new 12 string. Not funny part is I did the opposite on the last mandolin I built...put the marker on 9 instead of 10.
I'm leaving it on the 12 string though. Here's the deal. Larson's made a LOT of guitars with the marker at 10.
Apparently a European thing back then.
Got to remember 10th on mandolins, 9th on guitars... duh
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