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| Side supports.. minimum number? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23662 |
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| Author: | My Dog Bob [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Side supports.. minimum number? |
Wondering what you folks think about the importance of a bunch of side supports? I build Selmer style guitars that are roughly similar to the size of a cuttaway OM. Is 3 side supports per side too few? I have been using 5 but am wondering if this is overkill since Martin has used those crappy cloth reinforcements all these years.. My goal is to make the guitars as light as reasonably possible and simplify things wherever it is reasonable to do so.. not looking to protect the guitar from a worst case scenario. |
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| Author: | peterm [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
Don't use any. |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
Im in the same camp as Peter, I don't use any, I will if Im building a traditional style guitar and my customer asks for them. |
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| Author: | woody b [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
I'm curious, Peter and Lance. Do you use double sides? I space side supports a maximum of 4" apart. I've used various woods for them, usually whatever I had enough scrap pieces of. I like Todd's cloth idea. It would pervent, or stop cracks from spreading and weigh less. Thanks, Todd ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up")
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| Author: | LanceK [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
I dont use double sides. |
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| Author: | Burton LeGeyt [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
I usually don't use less than 5. I have been using wood and inletting them up into the linings. I think having something there is important to help stop long side cracks but the cloth is certainly able to do that well. In terms of weight, supports cut from an extra light spanish cedar board really weigh almost nothing. I just finished one up that came in at just under 3 1/2 pounds that has solid linings and side supports. |
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| Author: | Paul Burner [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
Questions along this line... What type of "tape" do you use and where do you get it? In my class we put the tape in and then glued the kerfed lining on top of it. Is this what you do? You coat with shellac??? What does this do? |
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| Author: | woody b [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
Lance Kragenbrink wrote: I dont use double sides. I was curious. I doubt side supports do anything to prevent cracks, just keep them from spreading. I've never had a cracked side so I guess my supports aren't doing anything. I don't think Gibson ever used them. I know they didn't in the older ones I've looked at. |
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| Author: | peterm [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
I don't do double sides unless its requested. I have a few good reasons not to use side braces. |
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| Author: | Alain Moisan [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
peterm wrote: I have a few good reasons not to use side braces. I'm interested to hear about them, if you'd be willing to share them. Thanks! |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
Martin uses them in Dreds I don' think they are in the 000's. I use 3 at most and I agree they are iffy. Most cracks that are from shock will be helped by the side supports but in humidity stress I can see where they would help crack more than stop them. I prefer linen strips or nothing |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
I've used from 0 to 7 per side and think an argument can be made for using them or not using them. There are pluses and minuses for both cases and think it's more a question of structural then tonal concern. |
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| Author: | woody b [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
There's a guy kinda near here who does modifications and repairs. If someone let's him do whatever he wants to a guitar he puts big strong Rosewood side supports in. He claims they couple the top and back, and this helps drive the top. (I don't believe it) FWIW he also likes to remove the frets that are over the body and leave the empty slots. He's done these mods to at least one new (at the time) Martin D18 Authentic. I don't think side supports affect tone either way. |
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| Author: | My Dog Bob [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
So it sounds like a decent number of people build guitars WITHOUT wooden cross-grain side supports and don't have problems.. |
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| Author: | walnut47 [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
Linen bookbinders tape is nice. You can get it at art supply stores. Walter |
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| Author: | Jim_H [ Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
I found 3/8" linen book binders tape at Blick Art Supplies online if anyone is interested. http://www.dickblick.com/categories/bookmaking/ I've not used it and am not endorsing it's use. I just noticed that it had been referenced in this thread and the tutorial thread, so I thought I'd share the link. So this leads me to a question. When using tapes like the ones suggested here, do you just glue the linings in over the top of them? If so, doesn't this leave a gap on either side of the tapes? |
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| Author: | jordan aceto [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
I like to load up on side supports, i make them wide and thin and they really add barely any noticeable weight. In the broken guitars i see, side supports that are wide enough (3/8" or wider IMO) do a good job of stopping the spread of cracks, and make repairs easier. Thin side supports (1/4" or thinner IMO) tend to pop off and fail and tape tends to dry up and peel off. The type of tape you guys are using may be better than the old stuff and you may be doing a better job of gluing it down, but i still don't trust it to hold up over 100+ years, although i could very well be wrong. Any time we talk about the long term stability of our instruments, we have to realize that by the time our guitars are old enough to start showing serious signs of aging we will probably be dead, so the best we can do is look to the failures and successes of very old instruments for guidance. |
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| Author: | george wilson [ Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
Have you guys ever noticed that cotton gets rotten when several years old,and tears very easily? Do you keep old cotton shirts and sheets for rags and see how easily they rip when a little old? Linen tape is MUCH superior. I wouldn't use wooden strips. You are gluing right across the grain of the sides. Sooner or later the glue joint is going to pop loose from wood movement. Use linen tape. The purpose of the cross strips isn't really to PREVENT cracks. They can't,unless you want to cover the sides with 100% coverage,turning them into plywood. The strips are to help prevent the SPREAD of cracks. Use linen tape for that. Maybe 5 pieces per side. I would never even consider adhesive backed tape. That is such a poor idea. They need to be glued down properly,not pressed on. |
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| Author: | keys1 [ Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
I don't use anything either. Wood does not work, nor cotton, or silk, or synthetics. Wood cracks because it is moving and how do you stop that, you can not. I have a ten year old dreadnaught that had five inch cracks in each side when I bought the wood, I could have sent it back but I wanted to fix it and build. I used super glue and it held for some years then started moving again. I could always clamp and super glue but they are not making an audiable difference even when close miked with a nice AKG. If I don't hear it it don't matter too much. Every one should do what ever they are comfortable with as some one may just come up with a way to completely stop the crack! |
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| Author: | george wilson [ Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
The point is that the linen strips help keep the cracks from SPREADING. They don't prevent them from happening. Using ca on cracks is a very bad idea. Hide glue is better. You can reglue it. |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
george wilson wrote: ..........The purpose of the cross strips isn't really to PREVENT cracks. They can't,unless you want to cover the sides with 100% coverage,turning them into plywood............... Hey - That sounds like a good idea! Below is a picture of one of my latest builds with ply sides. I epoxy veneer, in this case koa, to the sides with the grain running perpendicular. I don't believe these sides will split any time soon. The stiffness is vastly improved. This is part of my methodology of building thin tops - I want the sides to be very supportive. 
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| Author: | J Jones [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
I don't mean to resurrect this thread, but has anyone read the new acoustic guitar magazine? there is a repair article on a 1941 d-18, the relevant bit was a crack, along the grain, that ran from the tail to head block (near enough), down the whole bass rib. the cloth and glue side reinforcement had done nothing, as they too had also cracked cleanly in exactly the same manner. i realise that this guitar is the best part of 70 years old, and the cause of this trauma (and the age) was unknown (though there was quite a bit of cross grain damage by the tail block indicating that there was an impact there), could wood fail like this? is there anything that one could do to help extend the durability of the reinforcements? thanks Jonny |
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| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Side supports.. minimum number? |
Al Carruth braced up a bunch of sides with different supports, including wood and several different methods gluing different types of cloth supports. He then cracked them. His results showed the best crack stopping from cotton/poly biased tape from the fabric store glued on with hide glue and (I think) sealed with shellac. I've switched to doing this and find it easier to do than in letting wood into the linings. |
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