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A NO NOthing Build
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23656		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  the Padma [ Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  A NO NOthing Build
... === ...

Next up

is gonna be right off the wall
straight from the holster.


NO drawings
NO measurements
NO tape measure
NO ruler and
NO frigging calipers

NO bending gigs
NO molds
NO heavy machinery.
A NO NOthing Build.

Period!.


Me need to let the brain sit in its natural state for a while.

Ain't calling it a guitar
or a bass
or bouzouki
or anything for that matter

And I wont kNOw how many strings she gonna have or their
arraignment till I gets there.

Gonna use a stick of cedar
for the neck and ribs, and start building.

So in order to get started the Padma does the vision quest thing this last weekend....you know,
for some direction before I
break out wood Gotta start some wheres.

What came through surprised me in that 2 totally opposite visions came through.

One was of a jazz carved top and back, a 6 stringer much in the Gratitude and Grace concept of a few years back. Ya, just the opposite of a NO NOthing approach. It was a highly precise vision, bound with MOP on all the edges and violin style purfling, laminated head stock on both sides, gold tuners, tailpiece and end of fretboard pickup. Tortes shell pick guard. In other words an all out no holds bard, flashy all blinged up stage type instrument. Literally everything I wanted to get away from in a NO NOthing build.

Then the NO NOthing vision also came through and also totally surprised me in that even though it looks like one of my wishbone designs. It has a neck joint that I sketched out 2 years ago and the body is to be made from some really funky cedar that I had stashed away and forgot about.

Below is that neck joint sketch and pics of the cedar.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


Got the message to build the NO NOthing first and then to start the high end
jazz build only after the 2 mandos, the Holy Bass and the
Turtle Back Bouzouki are finished. Hmmmm.

This is the A 1, first class billet of cedar that mother nature
took all the trouble to bend and shape and carve out for me
Got this billet and a clear 4x4 piece of cedar for the neck all free from the dudes
who frow cedar shakes by hand.

About the only straight line in mother
nature is when man puts tension on a line ....yup the string.
So why me figure me tryin to out do the Mother. Therefor the only
straight lines this instrument gonna has is the fret board .

The situation with "S" curved and cupped panels is in the thicknessing of
them. Can't use a jointer or thicknesser. Its all hand work. ...all hand work
using traditional hand tools. Which is kind of nice. Means I don't
have to turn on any machinery. Yay!

Regarding the bracing... Well I'll probably use some modified version of the
traditional carved top. Will kNOw when I get there.
Won't use drawings or plans or measuring device for
as you can see that my 30 year old Stanley tape measure in
one of the pictures ain't all that accurate no how anyways.

This wood is just crying out for a figuring of some sorts carved into the
peg head and again in the heal down into the back and sides. Now wouldn't that be a
trip. I'll just wait and see what the wood wants as she being made.

Got about 3-4 weeks of Indian summer, so gonna be doing all the
rough stuff outside in the drive way. That way me can hear the birds singin
and watch the clouds go by.

Each piece of wood will be scribed, cut and fidgeted.

Only when its strung up in the white
will me determine the fret positions
by ear
after finding the harmonics for the
3dr 5th 7th 12th and so on.

The missing ones will then be an educated guess.

After hearing her voice, she will be destrung
and
her spirit caved into her accordingly.

Thats it.

Just gonna get me the heck out of the way and
let the Spirit come through.

Oh...

And don't go be asking the Padma NO dumb questions cuz

I don't kNOw. idunno

I don't wanna kNOw

Just wanna make sawdust
and listen to what Spirit gonna be a saying at me.

So wish me luck
and
Stay posted.

You aint seen nothin yet.

And remember,
you saw it

here at

luthiersforum.com


as always,
blessings
the
Padma


PS: Ya dudes, you read it right the first time.


.

.
Author:  the Padma [ Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
.
A NO NOthing Build Part 2


Well dudes,

After a close eyeballing the wood, and playing with different arrangements, it looks
like we got a long neck bass coming through with ribs of about 4.5 to about
5.5 inches...see pics

Also got a message.

First the build.

Had to have a chat with mother natures prebent sides to sort of help them along a bit.

Did that by sticking them in to a big pot with a little boiling water,
wrapped a towel around the top and let it have a steam bath for about 20 minuets.



Image




Then me, the wood and a few clamps had a small conversation. It didn't take much for
the wood to see my point of view.



Image



Had to switch to another neck as the first showed up an undesirable crack and
other flaws. Dang, it was such a good colour match too. Oh well a little bit of
airbrushing with some stain just before oiling on her finish should take care of that.


Image



Image



Image



Image



Tomorrow I will start to actually tool wood...can't really be plaining a compound curve, it' convexed, concaved and "S" shaped to boot. So its chisels and hooked knives.


This has gotta be the most twisted, bent outa shape thing me ever built. Sorta like me
personality. We is friends already.



Secondly... what did spirit have to say...?


Part of the message, was in the form of a poem I heard 30 years ago.

You want,
I want.
If you want
what I want,
I will make you very very happy,
If you don't want what I want,
I will exhaust you to get what you want.
But in the end I will still get what I want.

Mother nature has provided everything we need,
but not for much longer.


We can no longer be consumin, rejectin and hauling stuff to the dump just because. She can not,
and will not support an unsustainable rape plunder and pillaging of her natural resources for much longer.
All this wood in this build was reclaimed from a burn pile that was two stories high and about 70 yards long
that is then bulldozed over a cliff every single month and torched. They only take out the straight pieces
for cedar shakes...the rest...about 65 -70 % of the tree is a burn baby burn.

Makes me wonder what kind slash pile the wood butchers have after bucking up our tops and billets.

Just another oh well, thats gonna soon turn around and bite us humans by our ask me no questions.

It looks like we have pretty well exhausted mother nature.
She needs to rest and heal.
Dudes, Big frign change a commin...
That thousand years of peace is barreling down upon us like a Mack truck with no breaks.
The nexus is only 3 years away.
Chances of us changing our ways now
seem very very slim, but is still possible.

It really matters nothing
to the mother if we get it together
or she finally says enough is enough,
and fries and freeze the planet,
The consciousness on this planet is gonna have its 1000 years of peace
one way or the other.

Point blank...
The mother wants to heal.

I could actually hear her crying out as I put the blade to the neck only to reject it as unsuitable.

If we admit it to our selves, I think we have all been receiving this message for a long time now.


Blessings
the
Padma

.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
Love it!! [clap] :D [clap] :D [clap]

You GO Padma-san!!! I want to see how this one turns out..... Eat Drink

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  Flippo [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
Padma, I love your creativity and your ranting. You can't go wrong listening to Mother Nature.
Author:  Mark A Thorpe [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
That's awesome. One thing though, It's time for a new tape measure there buddy.
Author:  Blain [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
Very cool!

I can't wait to see the finished product.
Author:  Lars Stahl [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
[:Y:] [:Y:] [:Y:] COOL. I like the look of the wood boiling.

Lars
Author:  Mitch Johnson [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
Love your build Philosophy on this one....Can't wait to see where the rest of your creativity takes you!
Author:  Cocephus [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
Noble Padma,
I admire your wisdom and thoughtfulness to the things that are too often ignored.

You want,
I want.
If you want
what I want,
I will make you very very happy,
If you don't want what I want,
I will exhaust you to get what you want.
But in the end I will still get what I want.

Are we all willing to pay the price?
Enough said.
Coe Franklin
Author:  GregH [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
I know that the wood talks to you, but can you trust its answers after soaking it in boiling water?
Author:  TonyKarol [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
Interesting for sure .... but why not just glue the neck in ??? The mortice and tenon are already there.
Author:  the Padma [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
GregH wrote:
I know that the wood talks to you, but can you trust its answers after soaking it in boiling water?


GregH,

"Trust" is the word that immediately precedes a swindle.

The Padma, well him no trust nothing.

However, me gotts a lota faith.

Faith will carry you through when trust has been broken.

The other thing is, she wouldn't have been "steamed" if I didn't get the message to do that. That wood be contrary to the mandate of this build now wooden't it. laughing6-hehe

Blessings
the
Padma
Author:  the Padma [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
Cocephus wrote:
Noble Padma,
I admire your wisdom and thoughtfulness to the things that are too often ignored.

Are we all willing to pay the price?
Enough said.
Coe Franklin



Yo, Coe,

thanks for your kind compliment.


Regarding paying the price.

I believe that the one-third of the worlds population that is under-fed and the one-third that is is starving,* according to the World Health Organization, would be quite willing to pay the price of change. Its the other 3rd with all the goddies that I'm not so shure bout.

Since you've entered this site at least 200 people have died of starvation.

As this is a site for luthierizem, I won't go on any further on this topic.

However, check in to this thread again, and I'll probably have some other profundity to babble or rant about.

bliss


Blessings
the
Padma


* stats courtesy of http://library.thinkquest.org/C002291/high/present/stats.htm
Author:  the Padma [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
TonyKarol wrote:
Interesting for sure .... but why not just glue the neck in ??? The mortice and tenon are already there.



Well Tony

Lets not be go jumping the gun,
the neck will be glued in ~ into a properly fashioned mortise and heal block.

Check back here in a few days.

Blessings
the
Padma
Author:  Cocephus [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
I will be furthermore watching , and looking forward to your next post, Padman.
Cheers
Coe Franklin
Author:  TonyKarol [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
Cool .... will certainly check in to sse what next !!!
Author:  the Padma [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
.
verhoevenc wrote:
I'm sorry... but no offense... time is by far the largest investment that goes into ANY build. I can understand skimping a LITTLE on materials to save some money... but I see no reason for something like this? So much time in it for something that will never intonate (since you're not gunna measure anything... unless you're going fretless or having move-able frets). Sorry... but I just don't see it.
Also, I've already seen both a sketch and a tape measure (even if it isn't accurate). laughing6-hehe
Chris



Yo, Chris,

No offense taken. Glad it brought you to laughter. "A laugh can me a very powerful thing. Sometimes its all we got" ~ Roger Rabbit.

Just to bring you up to speed.

I carved my first neck at 16, built my first bass at 18.
Have hammered in about 3,000 frets in my life and no, not on an assembly line. At 20 some odd frets per neck, you figure out how many builds that is.

Regarding time. My time is my own. At my age I have no interests in reproducing some other dead master luthiers resolved nightmare that now roles off the assembly line by the thousands each day in every size shape and colour that you can possibly imagine for $299. ~ case included. Thats just mindless therapy to me.

Regarding the materials use. The grain count is over 35 lines per inch. The wood is perfectly clear Western Red Cedar with no compression. Because it has been frowed and not sawed, there is no run out. It is Al First class master grade. If you were to buy a set of straight flat sides and neck from the same tree it wood run you about $400 to $600. But try and find it. The top will probably be bolt of carved master grade Lutz. About $400 -$500, a gift as is virtually all my tone wood (enough to build for the rest of my life). Why gifted to me...simple because all my builds are original, one of a kind, unique R&D. As such the wood butchers and sawyers keep me well stocked. For this I am extremely grateful to the likes of Mario Da Costa; Expatluthier and many many others.

Regarding the pic with the tape measure in it and the sketch. Both pics are several years old and were long forgotten about when I conceived of doing the NO Nothing Build. A sketch is just that, its got no measurements like a drawing or blue prints wood have.

Now regarding "it will never intonate since you're not gonna measure anything." Thank you for your vote of confidence. pfft Intonation is set at the bridge and sometimes the nut. Not by measuring frets. Fret positions that have been determined by harmonics are far more accurate and one heck of a challenge than those mindlessly cut with a jig.

Which is the purpose of this build and the part that you don't get. Its a challenge. Probably my most challenging build yet.

So why you ask...because I can.


Blessings
the
Padma
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
Dear Padma,

I could not agree more, every word.

Best of luck to you
Author:  Kevin Gallagher [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
Pad,

I thought it was humorous that you said NO drawings and in the very same post you displayed a very nicely
executed drawing of the intended neck joint. I don't get the whole caveman thing, but if it makes you happy
and you're making things that people will enjoy playing. knock yourself out......fun stuff if nothing else.

As far as your method of fret placement, I tend to lean more to the idea that fret placement is a very important
consideration when intonation is concerned. My slots are never cut mindlessly with a jig, but they all fall
within .0001" of their proper intonation points. Yes, intonation is determined at the saddle or nut, but the
proper intervals have to be carefully determined and achieved if you want the thing to play in tune all the
wat up the neck. I love mother nature and all she has to offer us and teach us. You are a funny guy.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars
Author:  the Padma [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
verhoevenc wrote:
.....See my latest build,

..... but why not multi-task and pick a challenge that not only hones your skills but also does other things?? Perhaps you do envision other things,...

I will however follow this to see how it goes... and no BONDO!

Chris



Well Chris,

Thank you for your reply.

Regarding seeing your last build...I have. Very accomplished.

Regarding Multi-tasking...and "Perhaps you do envision other things,..."

Well Chris, It does, and I do. The purpose of this build is to first "shut the monkeys off from babbling in me head" Try shutting the mind off from its constant babble for half a minute. Most people can do it ~ for about 5 seconds. This yogic meditative practice takes years for Tibetan monks to accomplish.

Further more regarding multi tasking and the purpose of this build.
This build, as have been all my works in the last 6-7 years, is part of an ensemble of instruments, all original designs...designed, built and to be played in open tuning to the key of C#minor. So attempting a build of this nature with these materials while keeping the mind clear and ending up with something that performs in this key is a herculean task all unto itself.

Now regarding bondo....one day you and me gotta have a talk about bondo. laughing6-hehe


blessings
the
Padma
Author:  the Padma [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
Kevin Gallagher wrote:
Pad,

I thought it was humorous that you said NO drawings and in the very same post you displayed a very nicely executed drawing of the intended neck joint.

As far as your method of fret placement, I tend to lean more to the idea that fret placement is a very important consideration when intonation is concerned.

proper intervals have to be carefully determined and achieved....

You are a funny guy.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars



Thanks Kevin,

glad you see the humour to me madness. bliss

Again when this build was first conceived, I had long forgotten about the neck joint sketch and the wood.
I conceived the concept on a Friday...vision quested for 3 days and then posted the NO NOthing build
here on this forum and included the sketch and the wood. The tread as it appears here is a condensation of several posts. If you wish to see this thread in its original chronological order go to http://www.luthierforum.com or to http://www.luthiercom.org
Unfortunately by the time this misscommunication was realized, this forum would not permit re-editing.


I agree with you Kevin, fret placement is vitally important. However, using a computer program to calculate the positions or one of them fret cutting templates and slotting away ~ boaring. Yes it is very accurate and fast...but what is learned about harmonics? Me have slotted that way for years, always making me own slotting jigs. Its is mindless therapy to me so I will use the much more ancient harmonic method from luthiers of long ago...see what I learn and hopefully it works...If not...whats to replacing a fret board or two or three. Or how ever many it takes.

I hope to find that on line pic of a fret board that was decided by harmonic intonation and not equal temperament slots from a jig. The fret positions were all short little bits and were scattered all over the neck. Blew me away. The simple truth is, the mathematical or computer calculated fret positions, although extremely accurate, are only a pile of averages and as such are way way off to what the true positions are for a truly accurately intoned and fretted neck. This is just one of them things that is simply never discussed and always over looked out of convenience. But hey, is just another one of them "Oh wells" in life.


Blessings
the
Padma
Author:  Mike Dotson [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
The purpose of this build is to first "shut the monkeys off from babbling in me head"

Is it working?
Author:  the Padma [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
Mike Dotson wrote:
The purpose of this build is to first "shut the monkeys off from babbling in me head"

Is it working?



Are you kidding me?...probably gonna take me the rest of me life to pull it off. laughing6-hehe

But yes, I am more relaxed and much calmer.

Blessings
the
Padma
Author:  MacD [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
Hello Padma.
I'm sure you're aware of this, but I'll throw it in just in case..
If you fret it to to have perfect intervals in C# minor, other intervals in other keys will sound terrible. (I think fifths in A will sound particularly bad but don't quote me. It's a long time since I studied this stuff) An option is to build a series of interchangeable fingerboards with perfect intervals in whatever keys you want to play in. It's a complicated way to build, but it does sound nice.
There's info here if you need it. http://www.j2b.co.uk/tuning/
Cheers,
Bri
Author:  the Padma [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A NO NOthing Build
MacD wrote:
Hello Padma.
I'm sure you're aware of this, but I'll throw it in just in case.....

It's a complicated way to build, but it does sound nice.
There's info here if you need it. http://www.j2b.co.uk/tuning/
Cheers,
Bri



Blessings Bri,

Being self taught with no musical theory...me don't be aware of much at all. Still trying to figure stuffs out.

Thankyou for your kind post and for the link. Much appreciated.

blessings
the
Padma
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