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LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
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Author:  Todd Rose [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
I wonder if any of you have found a source for a bit that would be interchangeable with LMI's binding cutter bit, i.e. a one inch diameter downcut rabbeting bit with the same type of bearing shaft on the end, so I could use the LMI bearings on it (and a 1/4" shaft to go in a lam trimmer). It would be nice if there's an equivalent good quality bit available out there for somewhat less money, and if you've already found one, I'd sure appreciate the time savings of not having to search for one.

Thanks!
Author:  John Killin [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
I haven't tried it, but Woodcraft has a Whiteside Rabbiting bit set that comes with 8 bearings that looks really close. I don't have either so I don't have a way to compare. I don't think the woodcraft site had enough information to compare.

I'm thinking that the set might just be enough to get me going.

John
Author:  mtracz [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
Todd,

I built my 'kit' using #5392.
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bit_rabbet.html

here is a pic of the set.
Image
Image

I could measure the the ID of the bearings so you can make sure they will fit. Let me know...

_Mike
Author:  Todd Rose [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
Thanks for the responses, John and Mike.

I'm not sure I made myself clear. I already have all the LMI bearings, along with the LMI bit. I would like to get a second bit, of the same kind, that I can use with the same set of bearings. I could buy another bit from LMI, but I suspect there may be equivalent bits available from other sources for a lower price.

That MLCS bit might work with the bearings, but it isn't a downcut. LMI's is a downcut, and I want another one like that.

Any other leads?

Thanks again -
Author:  Mike Collins [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
Todd;
how are yas ?
Send me the measurements .
I have 2 here & if there the same -I do not know if they canged the cutter size -I'll send ya one for nothing.
One is NOT used at all .

take care sir !

Mike
Author:  Todd Rose [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
Mike, you are so kind to make such an offer! Wow, thank you. Here are the measurements:

1/4" shank (fits laminate trimmer collet)
1" OD cutter
1/2" cutting depth
.187" OD of the shaft the bearing fits over (matches the ID of the bearing; actually, measuring the ID of the bearings, I'm getting more like .190")
5 degree downshear cutter angle

One of the things I like about this bit, along with the downshear cutter (which makes a nice, clean cut - greatly reduced fuzz), is that the shaft onto which the bearing mounts is relatively long. There's about a .200" space between the cutter and the bearing. This ample spacing allows the bearing to easily reach the side of the guitar when cutting for purfs after the binding cut is made. Most rabbeting bits, it seems, are not made this way.

The photo on the LMI page shows this space between the cutter and the bearing -
http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproduc ... earing+Kit

So, is that what you have? Thanks again!
Author:  Todd Rose [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
Mike, I just sent you a pm.

Thanks, also, to Todd and Filippo for your responses.
Author:  johno [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
I just bought the cutter you are talking about. I get one of these every 2 years when I am out in Healdsburg from LMI. I will probably sharpen one of the old ones by taking off enough material so I can actually get 5 thousandths steps by using smaller (sharpened) cutter for the “between sizes.”

These type of “where can I get this cheaper” threads tend to “bug” me a little. LMI and StewMac do a great job of putting things in their catalogs that aren’t necessarily used for only for lutherie and allowing us to purchase with one stop shopping. Sure they might cost a little more than if we went right to the source, but they did the research, the testing, the collecting. Once you pay the shipping for one-offs from another source I doubt you are really saving anything if you combine your order with other supplies. LMI and StewMac are not huge companies and I hope they are around for a long time. We almost lost Lawrence McFadden’s and that would have been bad for the industry. To each there own, but I rather support these guys. Not only are they (paying) sponsors of the OLF but there a bunch of great people in each of those companies, people I call friends. Ok climbing back down off my horse.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
I hear you, John, and I think you and I actually see things very similarly in this regard. I very much appreciate all the work the folks at LMI and StewMac do to bring us great and indispensable product lines, and I also consider Chris, Natalie, Jay, and others in those companies friends of mine. I often take the "one stop shopping" approach, and I like to support these businesses.

On the other hand, neither StewMac nor LMI supply everything I need; there are others I have relationships with and enjoy supporting as well; I do sometimes shop around for options, whether it be a different tool for the same task or the same/similar tool for a better price; there are occasions when I find it worthwhile to go "straight to the source" or find another supplier for something. Amana, CMT, and other high-quality router bit manufacturers make excellent rabbeting bits that are available for about half the price of this bit from LMI, so it seemed to me that, if I can find one that has the features and dimensions of the LMI bit for that kind of price, this would be a case where it's worthwhile to go to that source. As I see it, being a "loyal customer" and a "free agent" are not really mutually exclusive.

I appreciate your input, John.
Author:  johno [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
Hey Todd first and foremost, I consider you my friend, and I wasn't try to slam you, really no big deal and by no means I am saying we should be exclusive to LMI. (I hope Chris isn't reading this)

Just in this case is kinda bugged me. LMI did the work of creating a nice set of bearings and cutters. Yea they cost a little bit, but I doubt those bearings sizes are an not an off-the-shelf item and I also bet you couldn't have them made for you any cheaper. Good luck finding all those sizes. Also they chose the right bit, with the downcut angle, the bearing clears the binding ... all the stuff we want. You even say in you opening post, you appreciate the time savings of not having to search for one! Isn't that worth something? Well you don't have to do any searching... LMI has done if for you ... it is right on page 111 of the their catalog. I am all for shopping around (free agent), but in this case LMI has done its homework and they spent the time to put together a decent package. So ... as long as I am using their binding cutter/bearing kit, I will go them for the replacement cutter (loyal customer.) (By the way, the price is not bad)

For what its worth, I am still not 100% happy with my whole binding jig/cutter/holder arrangement, so I may be looking at alternate cutter at some point anyway. Something with an adjustment might be nice ... we'll see.

No worries Todd (I hope)
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
Todd,
I used to sell the sets of rabbet and bearings for $150 and it had 19 bearings. But my supplier dried up. I actually have the LMI bit and one of mine, and a woodtek bit. The bearings from LMI work on all of these rabbet bits. You can get them herehttp://woodworker.com/fullpres.asp?PARTNUM=819-612&CARTID=200909037225820044--1

Item# 819-612 61321 1/4"CT RABBETING BIT Woodtek EA $21.99
Cutter thickness 1/2"
Shank 1/4"
Cuts a 1/4" ledge
From top of cutter to bottom of shank 1-3/4"
Diameter of the cutter 1"
This does not have the long tip like the LMI bit, but it works.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
johno wrote:
Hey Todd first and foremost, I consider you my friend

The feeling is mutual, John.

johno wrote:
LMI did the work of creating a nice set of bearings and cutters.

They did, indeed.

johno wrote:
Also they chose the right bit, with the downcut angle, the bearing clears the binding ... all the stuff we want.

Yup. Those features make it the cat's pajamas.

johno wrote:
Well you don't have to do any searching... LMI has done if for you ... it is right on page 111 of the their catalog.

True again. I don't intend to waste much time looking around. So far, I haven't turned up a bit that has the features of the LMI bit, and, for the time being, I'm giving up and will stick with the LMI bit.

johno wrote:
No worries Todd (I hope)


No worries, John.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
Todd Stock wrote:
This is the case with the bit itself, which appears to be a plain vanilla 1" piloted rabbeting bit....


Well, except for the downshear cut (probably not hard to find on other bits) and the long bearing shaft (apparently quite hard to find on other bits). The latter feature, especially, is essential for the way I do things.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
Tracy and Filippo, thanks for your suggestions. I'm going to stick with the LMI bit unless I come across another that has the same space between the cutter and the bearing, as well as the downshear cut.

Now, if anyone is still listening, this came up for me because I noticed a very small chip out of the corner of one of the carbide tips on my LMI bit. I am clueless as to how to grind that out and maintain the perfect geometry of the cutter. I was thinking I'd get a new bit and hold onto the chipped one until I learn how to grind and sharpen it properly - then I'd have two, which would be good. I'd like to have a back-up bit on hand, and having the two with slightly different ODs could come in handy, too. If anyone can point me in the right direction for the grinding/sharpening, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I went ahead and used the bit as is to cut binding and purfling rabbets on a guitar yesterday, and it went without a hitch, so, being short on dough at the moment, I'll probably just keep using this bit for now.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
withdrawn - ya got it covered already.... :D
Author:  keys1 [ Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
Todd, I have not that type of bit yet but need to aquire one. I buy inlay bits from LMI and they cost a bit, most wouldn't think they cost very much if you work for a living, I don't work, I'm on disability. I noticed on the plastic package the bit comes in a company name and went to the site and found I could buy the same bit in most cases $10 to 15 less and was shocked that LMI had such a mark up. I even wrote to LMI and asked why they had such a high mark up on almost all that they sell, and that other companies who sold the same products cost much less.
They did not care, they charge what they want.
I do not buy tools from them unless I just have to.
Does the package your bit come in have a company name? If it does go to the site. Even carbide does not have to cost a lot as I've found out. I'm a Nam vet and been building for nine years now. I don't frequent this site too often as it takes time out of building, but thought I could help a little.
cheers.
Author:  John Hale [ Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
Can I ask why you need the binding bit cutters, whats wrong with a standard cutter and an edge guide setup? You'd have an infinite choice of sizes then
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
Quote:
Can I ask why you need the binding bit cutters, whats wrong with a standard cutter and an edge guide setup? You'd have an infinite choice of sizes then


That works very well, but at least to me there is less chance for error when setting up, and once you know exactly the ledge size set up is totally fool proof. I like the ease of use of the bearing cutters myself.

Fred
Author:  Todd Rose [ Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
Thanks for the continued input, everyone.

I don't wish to argue with any opinions presented in this thread, but just for the record I want to make it clear that I did not intend to criticize LMI for their pricing. I have no qualms with the folks at LMI or how they run their business; in fact I greatly appreciate all they do and admire how well they do it, and I am happy to be a regular LMI customer. I highly recommend them to others.

As to switching to a different method, I am very happy with the results I get using my LMI-purchased Ribbecke binding rabbet cutting jig with a PC 310 and the LMI bit and bearings, so, for the foreseeable future, I'm sticking with this method. It works flawlessly for me (and I'm a real perfectionist - the slightest gap in bindings and purflings would not pass my test), and I highly recommend it.

If I run across a source for a bit of the same quality, features, and dimensions of the LMI bit for a substantially lower price, I'll buy my replacement bits there in the future (while continuing to use the bearings and the jig from LMI), and I don't think my friends at LMI would begrudge me that.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI binding cutter bit: source for equivalent, less $$?
Filippo Morelli wrote:
johno wrote:
These type of “where can I get this cheaper” threads tend to “bug” me a little. LMI and StewMac do a great job... snip ... Not only are they (paying) sponsors of the OLF but there a bunch of great people in each of those companies, people I call friends. Ok climbing back down off my horse.


What's the point of posts like this? pfft

Filippo

p.s. And yes, I bought my set from someone other than LMI. In fact it was a) less and b) they happen to be a sponsor of the OLF. Love to hear how you want to reconcile that in your morality matrix. Let me know if I should return it and buy LMI's since, by your post, I'm obviously on a smaller horse than yours.


I appreciated John's comments and did not find them disrespectful or offensive.
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