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| Alchohol for french polishing? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23632 |
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| Author: | Jim_H [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Alchohol for french polishing? |
I'm reading up on French Polishing. Searched through quite a few previous threads here, and found a couple of different online tutorials. Unfortunatelly, I'm in information overload when it comes to materials selection. Specifically alcohol. I've read somewhere (I lost track where - it might have been on this forum) that denatured alcohol should not be used because it's A) dangerous, and B) contains solids that may contaminate the finish. Everclear seems to be a popular choice, unfortunately, the goody-two-shoes that run the wonderful nanny state of "Washington" (the left coast version) have deemed it too dangerous for us mortals to purchase in our local liquor stores. Anyone care to offer suggestions for a source for alcohol suitable for french polishing that I can easily (read: legally) obtain in my local area? |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
Jim, I don't think there's anything in the way of solids in DA that would harm the finish. I've used it, but switched to Everclear because of the toxicity, low though it is in our application. In the US, the closest place to Bothell to get it would probably be Montana. The westernmost town that has it is St. Regis, if I recall. Friend of mine here in Spokane got some kind of license to buy it for finishing instruments. I've also heard of herbalists using it legally. Pat |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
Get in touch with this guy…  Seriously, I think the main problem with denatured, at least the kind we have over here, is the relatively high water content. Whatever you get, make sure it is as strong (pure) as possible. Technical lab ethanol is usually the best, if you can get it. |
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| Author: | George Thomas [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
Jim: Most of us in WA get our 190 proof Everclear from Oregon where it is legal. I guess that makes us smugglers. I have had no problems with Behkol which is designed for French polishing. I get it from Grizzly. |
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| Author: | David Newton [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
I've gone back and forth between everclear and denatured. Everclear is just too expensive, (and tastes nasty) at 4x the price per quart. Denatured works just as well as ethanol. Wear gloves if you are concerned with the methanol in it. |
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| Author: | spoke [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
I have used denatured before and finally switched to Everclean when I moved here to Colorado where it is legal. The big difference is if you make a major mistake on your build the Everclear may come in handly.... LOL |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
It's getting harder to get 'the good stuff' everywhere. Even here in 'Live Free or Die' New Hampshire you can't get Everclear or Grave's at the liquor stores any more. *sigh* The big problem with denatured alchohol is that you don't know what's in it. I have one of my dad's old chemistry books, and they've got pages of formulae for denaturing alchohol for various uses. It might contain gasoline, nicotine, ipicac, or even shellac, depending on what you need to do with it. The folks packaging it for the hardware store probably use whatever works and is cheapest at the time, so the formula could change depending on market conditions. Some additives, such as gasoline, might make French polishing troublesome, even if they don't add solids. I've found Bekhol to be about the best denatured alcohol, and, since they make it up for French polishing, it probably won't have anything too inimical in it. But do wear plastic gloves when you use it, and have good ventilation as well. |
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| Author: | Jim_H [ Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
Thanks guys, I didn't even think about Oregon. I just drove through there on my way back from H'burg, but in my rush to get home, I forgot to track some down. I guess I'll have to find an excuse to drive down to Portland some weekend. In the mean time, I'll probably give the Behkol a try, since there is a Grizzly show room up in bellingham, and I can go harass Kent Chasson while I'm up there. ;p I think I'd prefer to not have to worry about the gloves and such.. if I can help it... Anyway, thanks again. |
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| Author: | MRS [ Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
A lot of experts on this swear by grain alcohol. Here in pennsylvania its illegal to sell. It wasn't at one time. You can still get it but its a special order item throught the state ran liquor stores. It's a pain to do since you have to fill out a form stating what its for and have ID. It's just easier for me to go to Jersey or Delaware and get it. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
Wearing gloves is a good idea, regardless of what you are using as a solvent. Not for skin absorption issues, but for finish protection issues. Wait till you scratch your top with your fingernail, why you are spiriting off. Gloves soften the scratch greatly. |
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| Author: | Marc [ Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
I've used both, I can't tell the difference as far as the french polish. Now I use everclear, there's no odor and it's safe. Although I'm not convinced that DA isn't just as safe if you use gloves. Waddy, I agree completely, it's really aggravating to drag a fingernail in a clean window of shellac after three days of building up, gloves help. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
I think it's a particular problem for those of us who play classical, and have players nails on our playing hand. Being a cat would be very helpful, when doing FP. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
Over the years I've developed a regimen when starting to do a French polish finish and trimming my nails is the first thing that I do........ |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
One of the advantages to being left handed..... |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
Quote: Get in touch with this guy… While in Tennessee a neighbor of a friend down their gave my brother in law a mason jar of moon shine and there were little blocks of wood in it. Might not work in the shellac, but may make the job more enjoyable. I guess the wood is for taste improvement, by the way I didn't sample any. Fred |
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| Author: | JasonM [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
I use 100% pure grain alcohol 200 proof, aka anhydrous ethyl. Has no water. Need a special permit to obtain, as it is tightly controlled. Doesn't answer your "easily obtained" question, but is the purest, water free alcohol you can get. |
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| Author: | Matt Bouchie [ Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
Alan Carruth wrote: One of the advantages to being left handed..... As long as you play the guitar right handed!  Matt |
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| Author: | MRS [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
JasonM wrote: I use 100% pure grain alcohol 200 proof, aka anhydrous ethyl. Has no water. Need a special permit to obtain, as it is tightly controlled. Doesn't answer your "easily obtained" question, but is the purest, water free alcohol you can get. But since alcohol is hygroscopic it won't remain water free. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
Distilling alcohol to 200 proof is impossible. The max obtainable proof is 190, through distillation, only. In order to remove the final 5% water, some sort of chemical desiccant has to be used, which makes the process more expensive. The Lab grade stuff I've seen is really expensive, compared to the drinking version. I use a product called Diesel, distilled in Kentucky. Meets the same specs as Everclear, but a few bucks cheaper. There may be other sources of lab grade alcohol, but I haven't found it at reasonable prices. |
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| Author: | JasonM [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
to get to 200, I believe the remaining water is replaced with Benzene I pay about $20 for a 500ml. bottle |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
Well, that's only about 2 1/2 times the price I pay for grain. |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
WaddyThomson wrote: There may be other sources of lab grade alcohol, but I haven't found it at reasonable prices. I get it very cheap Waddy, in fact for nothing, but then I am in charge of a large University laboratory! The University employs a full time French polisher in our maintenance department, for all the buildings old panneling, doors and furniture, and he comes to me for it as well. Colin |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
Let's see now, "How can I get a job at a University Lab, and be in charge of buying alcohol?" There must be a way!  I pay about $12 - $13, per fifth. Which is, easily, enough to do a couple of guitars. I just bought my second bottle, to do #3 when ready. Really not such a bad price, and I'm sure I wasted a good bit on my first, mixing extra shellac, testing colors, trying new things for the first time. |
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| Author: | PaulB [ Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
I also work in a University laboratory these days, we get 20L drums of 99.95% Ethanol for about $AUS80 (something like $US75). We have to fill out a pile of forms for the tax people to say we won't drink it. Which is kinda silly as you can't drink this stuff because the benzine in it will cause blood disorders such as leukemia etc. Ethanol forms an azeotrope (wikipeadia it) with water at around 95% ethanol to 5% water, you cannot distill to a higher purity than that. They use benzine to break the azeotrope and acheive a higher purity, the benzine level is only around 5ppm but that is still more benzine than you want in your body. As soon as you open the drum the ethanol will start to absorb water from the atmosphere, it just wants to from that damned azeotrope with water and there isn't much you can do about it. Denatured alcohol is usually denatured these days with a little methanol (couple percent). If you are worried about the toxicity of methanol just remember that the antidote for methanol poisoning is ethanol. Which is where your beer fridge (you DO have one of those in the workshop, don't you?) comes in handy. Important piece of safety equipment, the beer fridge. |
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| Author: | enalnitram [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alchohol for french polishing? |
Here in Michigan it is illegal to sell 190 proof Everclear. But the 151 proof is available. Can I use that for FP or will it cause problems? |
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