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Linda Manzer style tapered body
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Author:  Neil Gardiner [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Linda Manzer style tapered body
I was thinking of giving it a try.

Anyone have advise on how to go about doing it?

Neil
Author:  Pat Foster [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
How about asking Linda?

Pat
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
Or Cumpiano! beehive

Linda has been credited with the "Wedge" name but I believe the consept has been around for quite some time (before our generation). There may be something on the process in some more recent American Lutherie articles but really I don't believe it is that difficult (not having done one though) but I would simply tilt my dish and sand the rims to the desired demensions, add linings, sand again. The difficult portion would only be in processing the binding channels. But then again I could be missing a lot! (Sorry, I don't typically enter posts where I do not have a clue what I am talking about :oops: )

Shane
Author:  TonyKarol [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
I would tip the body while in the mold, in the dish, and mark the taper onto the sides .. then plane the excess off.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
I have only read about the process from someone's (I don't remember who) post who did it. As I recall, once the sides were in the mold they put them in the radius dish, back down, of course. Then lifted up one side (treble side) to a height of whatever amount of 'wedge' they wanted and then set a pencil to that height and traced around the mold to mark the sides. Next they cut to the line, added linings and proceeded as usual.

edit - same as what Tony said.
Author:  Rick Davis [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
Not sure I should attempt to answer since I've only made about 20 such guitar bodies. I will put in a plug for Manzer though. Even if someone sometime somewhere digs up a wedge body instrument from the past (and so far, they haven't, only talked about it), Linda definitely came up with the idea independently for her mega-string Pikasso and brought the idea to the attention of modern luthiers. Let's give credit without quibbles even if some other folks are stingy.

Yes to Steve Smith's response. For the first one, make the sides overly tall by about 1", bend and clamp in the mold. Then place the mold in the dish and tip to your desired wedge angle -- about 1" - 1 1/2" difference between the sides works well. Shim a pencil so it contacts the raised side, then mark around the rim. Plane, saw, chisel, sand, whatever ... to remove the excess. Back in the dish and sand. Now make patterns so you don't have to go through this again!

The back binding is difficult, especially with a cutaway. I use a Ribbecke-style binding cutter which works as well as anything for cutting the channel but I still have some chisel work to clean and even up the channel. There are some severe angles, relatively speaking, around the headblock and cutaway so expect to deal with gaps when binding. I try to avoid using ebony binding on wedges, preferring a more flexible (that is: forgiving) material.

Some people have, I've heard, tried putting the wedge on the top but that leads to issues with the neck and bridge. I prefer not to mess with that; the soundboard is complicated enough without throwing in a whole new set of problems.

Hope that's helpful!
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
I used Colin's method of transferring a side profile from a mold. This method used masking tape stuck to the inside of the mold. Tilt the mold to create the wedge that you want. You scribe the profile on the tape and then carefully transfer the tape to your template. Cut along the line and you now have side templates.

This part went pretty smoothly. One of the things that I had to do a couple of times because I got confused is make the head and tail blocks. I taper the blocks front to back to deal with the dome of the top and back. Now I also have to taper the blocks side to side to deal with the wedge on the back. Once you have done this, you have lost all symmetry and you have to be careful when you glue things up that you don't make a mistake.
Once your sides are tapered, you have to be careful when you bend them that you keep the inside/outside/left/right orientation correct.

Another "problem" that I have is that the wedge makes things look "Wrong". I'm constantly remeasuring my center lines to make sure that I didn't screw up.

I haven't gotten to the binding part yet so I can't comment on Rick's experience but, based on a previous conversation I had with him, I'm using plastic bindings.
Author:  Wade Sylvester [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
Rick, I think 20 wedge bodies put you in the range for a knowledgeable response in my book.. I have only made one that has only ½ inch difference in the sides, not enough to notice without having it pointed out to you but enough to make a difference in the comfort of the guitar. Also not as much trouble with the bindings.
I think Cumpiano made one for a customer with shoulder trouble so it needed to be a radical wedge.
I have seen Mike demo the method described and it worked like a charm.
It is worth it. Especially if you are looking for a little more comfort.
Author:  Rick Davis [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
Hi Mike!

I've never used the tape method but I did once try to use poster board instead of wood. Tilted the mold, the paper collapsed. Propped up the paper and mold, tried to mark it, the paper collapsed. Got irritated, hacked out a couple of wood sides, and all went well. I'm not just old-school, I'm in a rut. And yes! Before cutting the sides, double- and triple- check that you have a bass and treble, that the bass side is the narrower, and all is right side out. I haven't screwed that one up but I've come close.

I generally cut the wedge into the head and tail blocks, along with the end-to-end taper, but I just eyeball the angle so I cut, ahem, generously. A couple of minutes with a plane brings them close to proper size and angles. The radius dish takes care of the thousandths. The top of the blocks is my reference for center and squareness so the surfaces that glue to the back are irrelevant.

Cumpiano and Manzer have a disagreement re who did the first wedge. Linda remembers talking with William at length after presenting a talk about the Pikasso at an ASIA Symposium, after which he built the one for his customer. He remembers things differently but the one he presents as his new design was built after the Pikasso and the Symposium. Doesn't matter, really. Both are superior builders who have given much to the lutherie community and deserve our respect for their undisputed contributions.
Author:  Jim_H [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
Rick,

I'm glad you responded here. I considered giving it a shot, but you explained much better than I could have.

I used Rick's method on the Concert Jumbo I'm just finishing up and will attest to the fact that it worked like a charm, and will also emphasize that the back binding was... fun. bliss

Lots of interesting curves to deal with.

I'll post pictures of it once it's back from finish.
Author:  Neil Gardiner [ Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
Hey Thanks for all the advise.

I never thought about the whole binding issue. I was going to use either ebony or ziricote but maybe I will think about something a little more forgiving.

Neil
Author:  douglas ingram [ Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
I am currently preparing the binding channels for my first wedge body. Yes, it is a lot more complicated to do the bindings, and it has a double cutaway to make things even more fun!

Take your time with the binding stages, and anticipate lots of clean up.

I used the same method that Rick describes. I came up with it on my own, but had no doubt that some other bright mind had thought of it, too. It is easier than it sounds.

I used Cherry for the bindings, and am using veneers for the purflings. The purfling strips will be glued together in place, not prior.

If you were thinking of using Ebony...

I'll be using ferrous acetate to turn my cherry bindings black. I've tried some samples, and it makes the cherry go VERY black. This is not a stain, the wood itself goes black as the ferrous acetate reacts with the tannins in the wood. It is lightfast and permanent.

Obviously, you will need to seal your body wood!

Ferrous acetate is easy to make, dissolve some 0000 steel wool in vinegar, about 1 pad /liter. Leave the lid loose while this is being done, you don't want a gas build up sending your solution all over the work bench.

It reacts differently with each kind of wood. Oak, Cherry, and Walnut go black. Elm goes brown. Ash a kind of rich olive brown/green. Maple a kind of silvery brown. Haven't tried other woods yet.
Author:  mateo4x4 [ Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
Find myself more interested in doing a wedge, after reading all this, than I was before. :-)

Curious...is there any merit to doing a 'double wedge'? Thinking if it slanted from the center down on both the treble and bass sides of the back. Maybe start with a 5" tall body, and taper down to 3" or 4". Just thinking out loud again. laughing6-hehe

-Matthew
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
mateo4x4 wrote:
Find myself more interested in doing a wedge, after reading all this, than I was before. :-)

Curious...is there any merit to doing a 'double wedge'? Thinking if it slanted from the center down on both the treble and bass sides of the back. Maybe start with a 5" tall body, and taper down to 3" or 4". Just thinking out loud again. laughing6-hehe

-Matthew


A double wedge would be interesting from a style point of view but I can't think of another reason to do it. The advantage of the wedge is to have a guitar that feels like a thin body when you play it but still have the air volume of a deeper bodied guitar. Most of the wedges that I have played felt almost like parlor guitars but sounded rich and deep.
Author:  Kevin Gallagher [ Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
I remember Linda Manzer building her first wedge body. I talked to her at an ASIA even that year and Cumpiano
hadn't built anything of the sort at that time.

Linda is an incredibly talented and very creative and innovative builder of fine guitars and has continually come
back to impress and inspire the guitar building community with her skill and unique ideas.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars
Author:  dberkowitz [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
Kevin, perhaps you meant a GAL event. Linda built the Pikasso in 1984. If memory serves the genesis of ASIA began late that year or the following year. It wasn't until many years later that Cumpiano built his tapered body. Linda unfortunately made the mistake (one I too have made) of confiding a concept with someone who she thought she could trust only to have it bite her later.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
I have done one Manzer style wedge and fond it not any more difficult than any of the other guitars I have built. The back binding required a little extra care and a modification of the sled the guitar rides in with my StewMac true channel binding jig to get the sides to sit square. I preshaped my sides before bending and have described the layout process in a previous post on this forum. I would recommend a search for Manzer wedge on OLF as there is a large amount of info available. My next guitars will include a OM sized wedge. I will take some photos as I lay out the side templates and post them here in the near future. I am visiting my mother in law in Tn. I will get home next week and that is my 1st shop project.

My sore shoulder loves the wedge guitars.

Fred
Author:  Kevin Gallagher [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Linda Manzer style tapered body
David,
You're probably right in that it was a GAL event. I didn't attend an ASIA event until the late 80s.

Sorry for the confusion,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars
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