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Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23522		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Mark A Thorpe [ Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
I have a guitar I finished with EM6000. The top is yellow and the back is black, the top looks great, the back on the other hand has a serious blue tint to it in the sun and looks like sh@!. What can I do to fix it? I don't want to sand the entire guitar down and start over, the front has carvings on it and it looks great, so I don't want to touch it. What I want to do is blacken the back and part of the sides to cover the blue tint, but I don't know what to put over the waterbase lacquer, I want it to be high gloss over the black to match the top. I'm at a loss. idunno help!

The finish has been on the guitar for about two months, so it is cured.

Thanks
Author:  David Newton [ Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
I'm the 41st person to read your post, the first to reply, and like all the others, I don't know.

You need to contact the mfg'r. They probably don't know either.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
Wipe it off with acetone or the like. Of course, that is a guess, but it will dissolve under acetone. Get other opinions.

Mike

Edit: Oops! I thought you wanted to take it off. Never mind. Go to the Target Coatings forum and post your question.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
I'm just finishing up my first with EmTech 6000. Let us know what you find out.
Author:  muthrs [ Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
This is the problem with waterborne finishes that contain acrylic. To my knowledge EM2000 and KTM-SV are the only two waterbornes that do not have acrylic. I have experience with both and KTM-SV is by far the superior product. This is not to be confused with KTM-9 which does have acrylic. My suggestion is to sand the back and sides, but leave the top. Mask and cover the top and respray with KTM-SV.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
Randy,

The application guide link near the product suggests the use of a an explosion proof fan, etc. Is this product flammable? I would not think so (KTM-SV)

Mike
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
Do not wipe with acetone. Do not sand it off and start over with another waterbase.

Tint with brown (transparent, not pigment) and spray over it.

Then don't believe it when the waterbase companies announce that they have (once again!) produced a product that has solved all the shortcomings of water base.
Author:  the Padma [ Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
Yo, dude,

Is like this...many "black" finishes ( tints, dyes, and even pigments) have a blue, blue green, green, purple or even red appearance in sun.

Pure jet black only comes in opaque as it is made from lamp black....you know soot.

So go get some soot.
Or use
Black colourant as in Japan colours or Universal Tints (all are lamp black)...you know, the stuff they squirt into the gallon of tinting base paint to match the little colour swatches at your local home decorating joint.

Just mix it into what ever flavour of stuff that your squirten out the gun and re squirt.

Some leather dyes are a true black so you can try dyeing the back and sides and then re~spray.

Simple.

But the really simplest thing is ...don't look at it in the sun...after all dude...its just a guitar.



Blessings
the
Padma
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
Howard Klepper wrote:
Do not wipe with acetone. Do not sand it off and start over with another waterbase.

Tint with brown (transparent, not pigment) and spray over it.

Then don't believe it when the waterbase companies announce that they have (once again!) produced a product that has solved all the shortcomings of water base.



Sorry about the acetone thing... I thought he wanted to fully start over. Acetone will get rid of most of it, but if the guitar is painted, that would be a bad idea.

Mike
Author:  SteveSmith [ Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
I was a bit worried after reading this thread but just got a chance to check walnut back in the sun and it is fine. I'll have to remember this effect over something really dark.
Author:  Mark A Thorpe [ Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
Thanks for all the replies.
It's not the EM6000, It's something I did. I have finished six guitars with EM6000 all of them were clear except this one. I think for what I was trying to accomplish I should have use a different medium, I used Transtint mixed with the finish but I had to apply a lot of coats to blacken out the back, what I should of did was used Mixol or some thing like that.
What I would like to do is sand the back and sides and then spray a coat of black paint topped off with a couple coats of finish, but I'm not sure of what paint to use to avoid compatibility issues.
Then again I think maybe I'll try what Howard suggested first.
Thanks again for the replies.
Author:  muthrs [ Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
Mike, KTM-SV is waterborne and does not require an explosion proof setup. I'm not sure where you saw that.

Howard, given the track record on waterborne claims, I understand where you are coming from. I have tried a dozen of them and have always been disappointed. However, that does not mean that they will never get there. Never is a long time. Of course there is no such thing as the perfect finish, there are always trade offs. It's ironic and perhaps prophetic on your part that Grafted Coatings never made claims on KTM-SV or promoted it for instrument work. Maybe that's why it's so good. Rolf Gerhardt discovered it in his quest for a more perfect finish. This stuff really works and it is what was on my guitars at Healdsburg. Many people thought it was nitro. Again, I think the key is getting rid of the acrylic resin. To my knowledge, all previous waterbornes contained at least some acrylic resin. So it would be truly unfair to judge this new product based on experiences with past waterbornes, since chemically this represents a clear break with the past.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
An application guide by Rolfe Gerhardt, of Phoenix Mandolins

Straight of the Graftedcoatings website, above the pricing for KTM-SV

He talks about an explosion proof fan.

Thats why I asked.

Mike
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
muthrs wrote:
Mike, KTM-SV is waterborne and does not require an explosion proof setup. I'm not sure where you saw that.

Howard, given the track record on waterborne claims, I understand where you are coming from. I have tried a dozen of them and have always been disappointed. However, that does not mean that they will never get there. Never is a long time. Of course there is no such thing as the perfect finish, there are always trade offs. It's ironic and perhaps prophetic on your part that Grafted Coatings never made claims on KTM-SV or promoted it for instrument work. Maybe that's why it's so good. Rolf Gerhardt discovered it in his quest for a more perfect finish. This stuff really works and it is what was on my guitars at Healdsburg. Many people thought it was nitro. Again, I think the key is getting rid of the acrylic resin. To my knowledge, all previous waterbornes contained at least some acrylic resin. So it would be truly unfair to judge this new product based on experiences with past waterbornes, since chemically this represents a clear break with the past.


I am very interested in KTM-SV. What sheen do you use?
Author:  muthrs [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
Mike, I'm not sure why he uses an explosion proof fan. It may be just what he has. I don't use one and it is not needed. I'll ask him the next time I get a chance. I don't follow the same schedule as Rolf. One thing about this stuff is that the wood has to be well sealed. It doesn't like oils in woods. Rolf uses shellac, but I got burned once with it. I use the same type of solvent based catalyzed rosewood sealer that people spraying polyester use. The one I use is made by Ilva, but it is essentially the same as McFaddens. Since I'm not explosion proof, I just brush it on. It is water thin and it only takes a few minutes and a small amount of sealer. I do this twice and then spray the finish. Wait two hours between coats and finishing. Never had a problem and the sealer wets the wood nicely.

Ed, I only use gloss. Even if you want a satin finish, I highly recommend using gloss finishes and then controlling the sheen with the scratch pattern. Satin finishes have silica or other additives that obscure the grain.
Author:  Ken C [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
Mark,

I used EM6000 to spray two guitars recently, one of maple and the other of southeast asian rosewood. This was my first time using EM6000. I had previously used Target's USL. The light woods of the maple came out with no blueish hues, but the rosewood shows a definite blue cast in certain lighting. I attributed my problem to the EM8800 base coats. I put a few coats down to fill the pores, and I think it was too much.

Ken
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice to fix serious blue waterbase finish
Randy,

I like the ease of use with EM6000, but there is most definitely a blue cast on darker wood. I will give the KTM-SV a shot. And that sealer you mentioned.

I do think Rolf was simply using what he had... mentioning "explosion proof" (and its implications) was most likely an oversight.

Mike
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