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Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23403		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Darryl Young [ Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
I have a drednaught sized guitar made by Simon and Patrick Lutheir (which I've read are made in Canada and are sold under 2 or 3 different names). It has a bolt on neck.

The neck pulls too far forward under string tension. I can udjust the neck rod till there is back bow in the neck and it doesn't help the angle. When I site down the neck from the tail end, the neck is angled slightly forward rather than slightly back (while under string tension). However, after removing the strings and loosening tension on the adjustment rod, I lay a straight edge across the frets and it hits slightly below the top of the bridge.

I don't know anything else to try except resetting the neck. After studying Bryan Kimsey's website describing his neck reset procedure, I made a carboard cover for the top and covered it with aluminum foil. I tried heating the fretboard extension with a 60 watt light bulb and couldn't get the fretboard to loosen. The next night I tried it with a 100W light bulb down close to the fretboard extension. The fretboard got hot enough I couldn't hold a finger on it......but the fretboard didn't loosen. I'm using a very, very thin spatula that I try to work under the fretboard extension after I get it hot. I had the spatula in 170F hot water before trying to work it under the fretboard.

How long should I have to keep the heat on the fretboard to loosen the glue underneath the extension? Any chance this isn't Titebond or similar glue? Suggestions?
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
That isn't a light bulb but a heat lamp. You should be able to find one at Lowes or walmart
Author:  Darryl Young [ Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
What type and wattage bulb should I use?

When I get home (I'm at work now), I will post a pic of what I'm using if it helps.

If it makes a difference, I'm trying to loosen the fretboard extension without loosening tension on the neck bolts.
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
Hi Darryl,

How old is the guitar? You might not be able to remove the neck, even though it looks like it's simply a bolt-on.

I had a Norman in for a refinish of the neck (Norman are made the same way as Simon&Patrick are, both made by Godin). Since it looked like a bolt-on, I decided to take the neck off. Before ungluing the neck extension, I decided to loosen the bolts just to see if it was a mortise and tenon joint or simply a butt joint. To my surprise, even with the bolt loosened up, I couldn't tilt the neck forward at all. Trying to slide my spatula I noticed something was stoping it about 1.5" from the top.

After searching the net, I found an article where Godin describes is new way of attaching the neck. They actually glue in a small piece of wood (about 2"x1"x6") that attaches the neck to the guitar in addition to the two bolts. I'd like to show you the article but I can't find it anymore.

My conclusion at the time was that there was no way a neck could come off with such a joint.

All this to say I would check on that first before spending anymore time trying to unglue the fretboard extension.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
STOP!!! You are going about this all wrong.

You don't need to do anything but loosen the bolts and floss the cheeks. And the truss rod is used for setting relief, not the action.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
Good thought Barry.....I'll try loosening the neck bolts and see if I can get sandpaper under there.

Alan, I'll loosen the bolts and see if the neck gives at all. I'm unsure the age of this guitar as I bought it used.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
What Alain said. The repair guru here in Halifax has mentioned the un-resettable neck joint on the new low-end Godins. I'm not sure if they're doing it on the Seagulls, but they're definitely doing it on the S&P and A&L models.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Update: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
Now that I've thought about it......I've owned this guitar for 11 years......and I bought it used at a pawn shop. So it's not a recent model.

I just removed the bolts from the neck.......and the neck will tip forward away from the body a little (fretboard extension still holding it in place.

So do you suggest I buy an infrared buld to heat the extension and try to remove it? Or do you suggest I try to sand the heel with the extension still glued? The downside is I won't be able to get teh sandpaper all the way to the fretboard so the face of teh neck heel won't be exactly flat after I've sanded.

By the way, if using an infrared bulb how long does it typically take to get the glue soft enough to remove the fretboard?
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Update: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
Darryl Young wrote:
Or do you suggest I try to sand the heel with the extension still glued?

Yes, do just that and it will work fine.

Darryl Young wrote:
The downside is I won't be able to get teh sandpaper all the way to the fretboard so the face of teh neck heel won't be exactly flat after I've sanded.

I never had a promblem with this. Anyway you don't risk much in trying the sandpaper only and see if it is sufficient.
Author:  jmpbuffalo [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
There's a nice pictorial of how this is done on Frets.com

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier ... reset.html

Joe
Author:  Darryl Young [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
It worked!!! I really made a difference in the way this guitar plays. I drew a line with a dull pencil around the perimeter of the heel with the lead right up against the body of the guitar. Since the pencil was dull, the line was fairly thick. I ended up removing essentially the entire line on bottom of the heel. While I had the strings off, I also shaped the nut.....it was too flat and I rounded it off on the back side. I broke the G string after a couple of iterations of tightening/removing teh strings to check my progress.

This was great practice for setting the neck on my first build. I learned a couple of things:

1) Be careful the angle you pull the sandpaper out or you will sand the neck heel at the edge at an angle

2) Tape off the headstock while messing with the nut as one slip can leave a nasty scratch

On the last iteration, I tightened the truss rod till it was just snug. I'll let it set for a few days and see what changes take place before adjusting further.

Thanks for the help.
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Sun May 30, 2010 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
Bob Garrish wrote:
What Alain said. The repair guru here in Halifax has mentioned the un-resettable neck joint on the new low-end Godins. I'm not sure if they're doing it on the Seagulls, but they're definitely doing it on the S&P and A&L models.


Digging out this old thread because I've found the footage showing the new Godin neck joint that makes their neck 'un-resettable'.

The video is in french, but the images speak for themsleves. (Advance the video to 6m40s).

http://www.laguitare.com/2008/godin_princeville_2.html
Author:  Jeremy Douglas [ Sun May 30, 2010 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
Bob Garrish wrote:
What Alain said. The repair guru here in Halifax has mentioned the un-resettable neck joint on the new low-end Godins. I'm not sure if they're doing it on the Seagulls, but they're definitely doing it on the S&P and A&L models.


Any idea when that started? I've got an A&L that needs a reset. It's about 8 years old I think.
Author:  MRS [ Sun May 30, 2010 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
Does this have plastic binding around the neck. If not you can just use a home iron to heat the extension and use a spatula remove it from the top....Mike
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Mon May 31, 2010 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
MRS wrote:
Does this have plastic binding around the neck. If not you can just use a home iron to heat the extension and use a spatula remove it from the top....Mike


Although I haven't tried it, I don't think a home iron is going to be sufficient. It will work for simply ungluing a fretboard extension from the top, but we are talking about a piece of wood about 4" long burried and glued 1" deep into the body of the guitar.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
Alain Moisan wrote:
Bob Garrish wrote:
What Alain said. The repair guru here in Halifax has mentioned the un-resettable neck joint on the new low-end Godins. I'm not sure if they're doing it on the Seagulls, but they're definitely doing it on the S&P and A&L models.


Digging out this old thread because I've found the footage showing the new Godin neck joint that makes their neck 'un-resettable'.

The video is in french, but the images speak for themsleves. (Advance the video to 6m40s).

http://www.laguitare.com/2008/godin_princeville_2.html


Alain,

That looked like a simple butt joint to me. Are you sure that the extension showed in the video wasn't for an arch top neck?

---

Flossing is certainly the way to go for a simple reset on a bolt on neck. Interesting how Taylor has the concave but joint so that only the outside edges make contact with the guitar body. Most of my guitars are rounded at the head block and I take insane care to make sure every part of the joint is wood on wood contact thinking I will get better tone but who knows.

Other wise 5 minutes with a heat lamp and the neck will come right off.

Image
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
jfmckenna wrote:
That looked like a simple butt joint to me. Are you sure that the extension showed in the video wasn't for an arch top neck?


Yes I'm sure. I actually had to deal with a Norman B-50 fairly recent that had this extension. I wrote to Godin inquiring what models have this and since when. (As the video shows, they seem to still be using a plan old butt joint on some models).

I'll get back to you with the information as soon as they write back.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
Oh I see. That video was interesting. Amazing to see a huge factory like that.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
jfmckenna wrote:
That video was interesting. Amazing to see a huge factory like that.


[:Y:] [:Y:]
Thanks, Alain.

Off topic: Two things struck me in that video:
1) Notice how much time was spent filing/sanding/re-crowning frets? (None! good fingerboard prep and controlled fret insertion instead) BTW, I own a couple of Godins and the fret work is v. good, IMO.

2) Side bending- soaking sides (quickly?) in a water tank, bending into form by hand, then setting with heat. (no 'dry bending' or 'spritz') And those bent sides stay bent (piled up by the hundreds). A lot like the 'cigarette guy' video technique....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDQs4rnLbZU

Cheers
John
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck Reset on a Simon & Patrick Luthier Guitar
Ok, I got the answer back from Godin.

The neck joint shown on the picture I posted is used on ALL Godin models past 2005 (Seagull, Norman, Simon & Patrick, Art & Lutherie). That means on all models with 8 digits serial number starting with 06, 07 and 08, as well as 12 digits serial numbers.
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