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| Rosettes & ZipFlex http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23331 |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Rosettes & ZipFlex |
Can ZipFlex be used for rosettes? Mike |
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| Author: | Bill Hodge [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
Hey Mike, Hope you're having a great day. To answer your question, absolutely. If you look at a lot of Peter M.'s Cornerstone guitars he uses them. Kevin Ryan's guitars have them, and I am going to use one along with some light Amboyna Burl on a Cocobolo MJ size that I am currently building.  It's great stuff and congrats to Kevin for his creative gift!
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| Author: | John Shannon [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
This, my first ever, was done with zipflex. The installation and glue up took all of 5 minutes. John 
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| Author: | LanceK [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
It worked fantastic for my last rosette! Super easy to work with as well! Attachment: S1054788 area51.JPG
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| Author: | Andy Birko [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
I just finished a bandura with a zipflex rosette that can be seen HERE It's a little trickier to do a continuos rosette like this but I just lap jointed the zipflex. The zipflex joint is completely invisible - much better than the purfling joints. |
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| Author: | woody b [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
Nice rosettes everybody. 
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
In the picture above, there is BWB purfling. Where do I get stuff that thin? And, Do I have to cut it down for the right depth? Mike |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
LMI and StewMac have it or you can cut your own from veneer sheets of wood or fiber or even order plastic purf too. The fiber comes in .010" and .020" wood is .012" and .024" from LMI. I just recieved sheets of fiber and some purple and yellow maple. I thought the zipflex also came with some black purfs. I'm not really sure though since I haven't used it. A bit pricey for me and I'm not in a hurry so the labor savings isn't a issue for me. Plus I like the option to size my strips to whatever size I need. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
I am looking for the plastic BWB. I kit I recieved from John Hall contained some of the stuff. Its only .03" tall perhaps? (and about as wide). But I do not see where folks sell this. It wood be appropriate for rosette inlay. I am beginning to think folks cut it from taller pieces. But how? Is there a cutter for this? I know, yet another tool. But I do not mind. I do use the fiber stuff, but I have not found it stable enough for fine inlay, like around a rosette. Could be an acquired skill that I just do not have yet. As such, I do not want to use it there. Mike |
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| Author: | woody b [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
Mike, you can get the BWB plastic stuff direct from Martin as a "Rosette Kit". I'd be willing to bet you can get the same stuff from John Hall without buying the complete "Rosette kit". |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
Try Martin guitar makers connection. They sale purfs but there might be a $25 min. order. https://www.martinguitar.com/1833/catal ... ar%20Parts I think it's the thin B/W/B inlay you are looking for. If it's high you just scrape or plane it down like any purfs. Not sure what you mean about the fiber not being too stable? I've always used it. 
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
I used .010" fiber on each side of the Ablam center ring here with no problem. This isn't finished yet as work still in process. |
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| Author: | Andy Birko [ Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
I bought the plastic strips from stew-mac here The only rub is that it's awfully expensive for such a little strip of plastic. IIRC I used the .010" thickness which I think is kind of cool - from just about any distance greater than 5' or so it just looks like a fuzzy line. As you get closer you see the fine lines. Zipflex does have a very fine black "purfling" on it which is the rubbery material that holds it in place. It can't be more than .004" wide though. |
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| Author: | Jim_H [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
I used zipflex on the rosette of the Concert Jumbo I built with Rick Davis a few months back. The only warning I would give is to give a little extra width to the slot. The zipflex is segmented and when you bend it tightly, it actually gets a a little wider. When wedging the stuff in, if the channel is too tight, especially around a tight corner, it will delaminate the black matrix material from the sides. We ended up with a nice result, but just take care in measuring the material when it's at the radius you plan to use, and make sure your channel is exactly that width (or a tad loose). |
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| Author: | Ken C [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
Just finished one using curly Koa. The buyer of the guitar didn't want a big rosette, so I just used the black matrix for the thin purfling lines. Worked very well, and I think he will be pleased. Goes in very quickly. Ken Attachment: Rosette (Medium).jpg Attachment: Rosette Close Up (Medium).jpg
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
Ken, When I look at the second enlarged picture it looks like the shell is little 1/8" segments. Is that typical with this zipflex and is that what Jim H. is talking about when he said segmented? |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
I see it too... but the other pics above do not show this effect. You have to wonder how it is so flexible. This would make sense, but not a real good look if that is how they achieve it. I ordered some. If it comes out looking segmented, not gonna be too happy about it. Mike |
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| Author: | Jim_H [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
Those are indeed the "segments" I was talking about. I would say that it is typical, although I've only used it on one guitar so far, I did use it for the top and the rosette. Edit: I should add that the segments are not really very noticeable. The pictures above are fairly representative. If you look close you can see them, but you do indeed have to look close.
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
Well I have to say that I'm not to impressed and pretty disapointed in that. The joints are always a bit of concern for me and trying to make them less noticable and minimal. At least when I crack Ablam it pretty much disappears when glued with CA. Have you all been glueing this in with CA? Plus cutting your own curved strips allows you to have some say over color matching the joints and turning the shell on and off and you only have to be concerned with less joints being visable. I'm not to sure that the trade off of control and quality is worth the labor savings for the cost of this at least for me. I would not be happy with that look unless gluing with CA cleans it up. I'm glad this segment thing was brought up as I will have to give some thought about using this product for my needs. |
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| Author: | Joe Sustaire [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
Ken, I really like that rosette! ![[clap]](./images/smilies/smiley32.gif "adulations") Simple and elegant, the fine line purfling from the matrix looks great, and I'm not bothered by the segmented shell. Joe |
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| Author: | Ken C [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
Chris, as Jim responded, the ZipFlex is made up of a number of small segments that are easily seen in the enlarged picture. Bear in mind that the actual Koa is only 0.25" wide and the shell 0.047", so the enlarged picture is probably 2-3x larger than my actual rosette. Notice in the first ring I posted that the lines are barely visible, if at all. I glued the rosette in with CA, flooded the cracks, and ran the top through my thickness sander. It had only been hit by 100g paper when I took the pictures. I've since smoothed it out with a scraper but need to seal the top and fill the remaining open cracks again with CA. Certainly curved strips will show a lot fewer joints, but to me the joints are only visible when closely inspected. Ken Chris Paulick wrote: Ken,
When I look at the second enlarged picture it looks like the shell is little 1/8" segments. Is that typical with this zipflex and is that what Jim H. is talking about when he said segmented? |
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| Author: | Ken C [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
Thanks Joe. I needed to keep the rosette narrow and uncluttered. I hadn't done a rosette without some sort of purfling lines, and I noodled this one for some time. I settled on the ZipFlex as the paua is very narrow, and it provided just a hint of purfling line. The segments don't bother me either, and from a foot or two away, they pretty much disappear. The ZipFlex provided just the effect I was after with this rosette. Ken Joe Sustaire wrote: Ken, I really like that rosette!
Simple and elegant, the fine line purfling from the matrix looks great, and I'm not bothered by the segmented shell. Joe |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
Ken, please don't think that I'm putting your rosette down as it does look very nice. I'm just surprized about the segments and it is just a concern for me. I'm surprize also that this wasn't mentioned by anyone else before. But it does have me rethinking using it now. But then again I'm setup for cutting my own strips from ablam or shell. My remarks aren't about your or the others rosettes but about the zipflex. |
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| Author: | Wes McMillian [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
Chris, just the fact that the segments haven't been mentioned by all the people here that have used it tells me it is not a problem. I haven't used it but would have no problem trying it out. That is the only possible way of knowing. I think we often have completely unreasonable expectations in regard to the materials we work with. Wood, bone, shell...these are all natural, organic materials with inherent flaws. Why do we expect more from this stuff? |
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| Author: | Steve Sollod [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rosettes & ZipFlex |
Ken, You said that you ran the zipflex through your drum sander... I was wondering about that. How much zipflex can you sand off without impacting or changing the characteristics of the color? Seems like on typical abalone there is some latitude... |
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