Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac

Brock,
without having knowledge of the steps you've taken and the discussions you've had with your printers, I would suggest 2 things that might be the culprit. The primary problem could be the paper being printed on. Like our guitars, it's made from wood and we know what moisture/humidity changes do to wood. Most print shops maintain their humidity levels just as we do. The printed piece could be perfect coming off the press and be off by 1/16" or more when it reaches its final destination. There's nothing anyone can do to prevent that from happening short of printing on mylar or a substrate that is dimensionally stable. The second possibility is if these plans are being digitally printed on a wide format black and white laser printer, paper creep can also be an issue. The paper is pinched and stretched as it proceeds through the rollers. This type of printer invariably prints an image larger/longer in the direction the paper travels through the printer. Offset printing, while more expensive, may mitigate some or all of the paper stretching problem. I doubt you will ever be able to deliver a printed piece with "ruler" accuracy. Just my thoughts after having bought printing for 40 years or so.
Craig

csullivan wrote:

Craig, thanks for your input!
Truth be told, I have more than a dozen guitar plans from many sources including the plans from my first guitar a Martin Kit. They are all off, not a one is true to scale. We are jumping through hoops trying to make dead on perfect plans and it just may not be feasible. That is why all the measurements are noted for all the pieces and parts.

I think this would only really concern the outside shape of the body.
We have a solution in the works as I write this. We have been working on this for about three months now.
We are going to be offering plexiglass templates for all three plans, OLF-OM, OLF-JS and OLF-MJ. They will allow you to trace the profile, sound hole center, all bracing, top and back, as well as indexing pin holes at the top and bottom of the center line with drill bushings that you can mate with your body mold for perfect alignment when you glue your top and back to the sides.

We are hoping to have these up for a presale this week, maybe even later today. They are going to be priced right around 30.00 if every thing works out.

Watch for an announcement soon..

I have the OLF plans for the OM, SJ, and tenon jig, ?

I will say that I was surprised that Lance & Brock had been working on a work-around solution. Why do that at all if it is unnecessary? I suppose we should wait until they speak up on that.

Mike

You would think this is a simple problem. ...

My theory is (and I have nothing to substantiate this beyond a hunch and previous experience) is that the calibration of the physical machine is not always dead on perfect, and this is ultimately the culprit.

... 2 things that might be the culprit. ... paper ... it's made from wood and we know what moisture/humidity changes do to wood. ... The printed piece could be perfect coming off the press and be off by 1/16" or more when it reaches its final destination.

The second possibility is if these plans are being digitally printed on a wide format black and white laser printer, paper creep can also be an issue.

Author:	Mike OMelia [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
I bought two of Michael Payne's OLF plans from Stew-Mac. Turns out they have some "scale" problems. Mike posted info regarding this. I waited for two months before purchasing the plans hoping the issues would be resolved by then. Alas, the plans I bought have the scaling problem. Before Mike left the site, I asked several questions about the problem via PM, but he never answered back. And yet, Stew-Mac continues to sell these defective plans. I have contacted Stew-Mac several times, and on two occasions they assured me they were working with the "vendor" to resolve the problem. But with Mike "retiring" from the business, I guess that means past and future buyers will get nothing good for their money. I am dissapointed that Stew-Mac has failed of late to respond to my questions. I am dissapointed that they continue to sell the same defective plans. I am also dissapointed that Mike has not resolved this issue with Stew-Mac. But with Mike gone, I guess I am SOL. Stew-Mac should discontinue the sale of this defective product and refund monies to purchasers. This has been going on for well over 4 months. I would say I have been more than patient. Mike

Author:	Tom West [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
Was a machinist in a former life and one of the first things we were taught during our apprenticeship was to never scale a drawing,but go by the printed dimensions.The only problem I can envision re: scale is an outline of the box.Just trying to understand what the actual problem is with the drawing.

Author:	Brock Poling [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
You would think this is a simple problem. But as it turns out it is not. The drawings are perfect. We have confirmed and reconfirmed this for years. We used to have the same problem when we printed them and sold them ourselves. We would send the files to the printer and they would come back perfect, then send the same files to the printer a few months later and they would be a little off, then the next time they might be off again, but not exactly the same as they were the previous time. We actually work with SM to get these printed and we have been discussing options with the folks who are printing the plans to get this worked out. We are experimenting with a few different final formats (PDF vs. CAD files, etc.), and we have tried several architectural printing firms and that didn't seem to help either. My theory is (and I have nothing to substantiate this beyond a hunch and previous experience) is that the calibration of the physical machine is not always dead on perfect, and this is ultimately the culprit. We are working with Stewmac to come up with a solution. What I have been meaning to do, but haven't done yet is to grab another set of plans (not OLF plans) and see if the same issues persist there as well. I will not be surprised if they do.

Author:	Mike Mahar [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
With the exception of tracing the outline of the body, I only use the printed dimensions. In fact, I prefer a scaled drawing because there is no temptation to measure the drawing. Brock, what is the range of error that you are seeing? 1/16" over the length of the body is reasonable measurement error when I make my molds. 1/4" over the same distance might be bothersome.

Author:	csullivan [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
Brock, without having knowledge of the steps you've taken and the discussions you've had with your printers, I would suggest 2 things that might be the culprit. The primary problem could be the paper being printed on. Like our guitars, it's made from wood and we know what moisture/humidity changes do to wood. Most print shops maintain their humidity levels just as we do. The printed piece could be perfect coming off the press and be off by 1/16" or more when it reaches its final destination. There's nothing anyone can do to prevent that from happening short of printing on mylar or a substrate that is dimensionally stable. The second possibility is if these plans are being digitally printed on a wide format black and white laser printer, paper creep can also be an issue. The paper is pinched and stretched as it proceeds through the rollers. This type of printer invariably prints an image larger/longer in the direction the paper travels through the printer. Offset printing, while more expensive, may mitigate some or all of the paper stretching problem. I doubt you will ever be able to deliver a printed piece with "ruler" accuracy. Just my thoughts after having bought printing for 40 years or so. Craig

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Author:	Brock Poling [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
Typically what we are seeing is the plans are off a bit differnet in the horizontal vs. the vertical direction. Most of the time, if we nail the horizontal, we are off a bit on the vertical. That is why we think it might be the printers. I would say that we are typically off about 1/16" across the guitar piece of the drawing on a 36x48 sheet. That is a good thought though about the paper stretch as it goes through the machine. I hadn't thought of that.

Author:	LanceK [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
csullivan wrote: Brock, without having knowledge of the steps you've taken and the discussions you've had with your printers, I would suggest 2 things that might be the culprit. The primary problem could be the paper being printed on. Like our guitars, it's made from wood and we know what moisture/humidity changes do to wood. Most print shops maintain their humidity levels just as we do. The printed piece could be perfect coming off the press and be off by 1/16" or more when it reaches its final destination. There's nothing anyone can do to prevent that from happening short of printing on mylar or a substrate that is dimensionally stable. The second possibility is if these plans are being digitally printed on a wide format black and white laser printer, paper creep can also be an issue. The paper is pinched and stretched as it proceeds through the rollers. This type of printer invariably prints an image larger/longer in the direction the paper travels through the printer. Offset printing, while more expensive, may mitigate some or all of the paper stretching problem. I doubt you will ever be able to deliver a printed piece with "ruler" accuracy. Just my thoughts after having bought printing for 40 years or so. Craig Craig, thanks for your input! Truth be told, I have more than a dozen guitar plans from many sources including the plans from my first guitar a Martin Kit. They are all off, not a one is true to scale. We are jumping through hoops trying to make dead on perfect plans and it just may not be feasible. That is why all the measurements are noted for all the pieces and parts.

Author:	Tom West [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
Would sure like to hear from Mike to see what his problem was with scale,but think that if we are worrying about 1/16 " on the shape of the box,there is no problem.Surely if we want to be "dead on" we could compensate in the construction of our mold.

Author:	Jimmy Caldwell [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
I think Craig has probably nailed it. I've been involved in building homes for the past forty years (Man, that sounds like a long time) and have drawn, printed, plotted and otherwise reproduced more plans/prints than I'd care to count. The first rule when dealing with any plan whether full-sized or scaled, is always to use printed dimensions. Regardless of the print medium (paper, sepia, even mylar) there is a certain amount of dimensional instability inherent in all of them. As far as Stew-Macs customer service goes, they have a reputation for bending over backwards to serve their customers. From my experience, that reputation is well deserved.

Author:	P@uL [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
does this include problems with the OLF - SJ plans? i just used the measurements basically and drew in my own bouts connecting the dots.

Author:	Kent Chasson [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
Lance Kragenbrink wrote: csullivan wrote: Brock, without having knowledge of the steps you've taken and the discussions you've had with your printers, I would suggest 2 things that might be the culprit. The primary problem could be the paper being printed on. Like our guitars, it's made from wood and we know what moisture/humidity changes do to wood. Most print shops maintain their humidity levels just as we do. The printed piece could be perfect coming off the press and be off by 1/16" or more when it reaches its final destination. There's nothing anyone can do to prevent that from happening short of printing on mylar or a substrate that is dimensionally stable. The second possibility is if these plans are being digitally printed on a wide format black and white laser printer, paper creep can also be an issue. The paper is pinched and stretched as it proceeds through the rollers. This type of printer invariably prints an image larger/longer in the direction the paper travels through the printer. Offset printing, while more expensive, may mitigate some or all of the paper stretching problem. I doubt you will ever be able to deliver a printed piece with "ruler" accuracy. Just my thoughts after having bought printing for 40 years or so. Craig Craig, thanks for your input! Truth be told, I have more than a dozen guitar plans from many sources including the plans from my first guitar a Martin Kit. They are all off, not a one is true to scale. We are jumping through hoops trying to make dead on perfect plans and it just may not be feasible. That is why all the measurements are noted for all the pieces and parts. I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect that plans be dead on. I have always found Stew-Mac's customer service to be as good as any company I've ever dealt with.

Author:	SteveSmith [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
I've learned the same thing as many of you over the years - never scale off the print. On the other hand I do it all the time off of other folks CAD drawings, not that it matters here. Having said that, I do like to make patterns by gluing a copy of the print to a piece of 1/8" ply. I use the printed measurements to make any adjustments to the lines and other features first before I cut it out.

Author:	LanceK [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
I think this would only really concern the outside shape of the body. We have a solution in the works as I write this. We have been working on this for about three months now. We are going to be offering plexiglass templates for all three plans, OLF-OM, OLF-JS and OLF-MJ. They will allow you to trace the profile, sound hole center, all bracing, top and back, as well as indexing pin holes at the top and bottom of the center line with drill bushings that you can mate with your body mold for perfect alignment when you glue your top and back to the sides. We are hoping to have these up for a presale this week, maybe even later today. They are going to be priced right around 30.00 if every thing works out. Watch for an announcement soon..

Author:	SteveSmith [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
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Author:	Mike OMelia [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
Lance, I will take some too. Is that $30 per plan? I would guess so. Sorry for being negative. SM is a good company to deal with. There just has been so little feedback on this issue. I am glad to see very useful discussion going on here. Yes, anything can be made from the measurements, its the top & back I am worried about, and any profiled parts. Brock, thanks also. I am glad that the problem has been fully explained. I also want to thank the group as a whole since no one turned this into thrashing for me and for keeping it wholly in the constructive zone. Mike Lance Kragenbrink wrote: I think this would only really concern the outside shape of the body. We have a solution in the works as I write this. We have been working on this for about three months now. We are going to be offering plexiglass templates for all three plans, OLF-OM, OLF-JS and OLF-MJ. They will allow you to trace the profile, sound hole center, all bracing, top and back, as well as indexing pin holes at the top and bottom of the center line with drill bushings that you can mate with your body mold for perfect alignment when you glue your top and back to the sides. We are hoping to have these up for a presale this week, maybe even later today. They are going to be priced right around 30.00 if every thing works out. Watch for an announcement soon..

Author:	Wayne Clark [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
I don't see why this is an issue. I have the OLF plans for the OM, SJ, and tenon jig, and it seems to me all the critical dimensions are printed. If the non-critical dimensions are off by 1/16 inch, is that really a problem?

Author:	Mike OMelia [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
Maybe not. I dunno. I got spooked by the whole thing after I bought the plans. In reality, I thought Michael was telling me that there was an error in the planset, not a printing problem. That is entirely something else. It appears I got that part wrong. And it does seem that 1/16th is not a lot to worry about. I will have to wait and see what others say. I will say that I was surprised that Lance & Brock had been working on a work-around solution. Why do that at all if it is unnecessary? I suppose we should wait until they speak up on that. If I can safely use the plan to make my top & bottom template, I am OK with that. If this template they are making is not really needed, but offered as convenience, and the funds help keep this site going, I have no problem at all with that! One less thing I have to do. Mike

Author:	Mike OMelia [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
Wayne Clark wrote: I have the OLF plans for the OM, SJ, and tenon jig, ? Wayne, where is this plan for the tennon jig? Mike

Author:	LanceK [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
Mike O'Melia wrote: I will say that I was surprised that Lance & Brock had been working on a work-around solution. Why do that at all if it is unnecessary? I suppose we should wait until they speak up on that. Mike Mike, the templates are not and never were intended to be a work around. They are a stand alone jig. Also, We are currently out of the Woolson tenon jig plans. We are working on that too

Author:	Mike OMelia [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
OK, got it. I have the OM and MJ. So I will be ordering these templates/jigs. Sorry if that sounded bad... did not mean for it to. Work around just means an easier path forward to me. I think offering templates is a great idea! Thanks! Mike

Author:	Tom West [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
Mike: Frustration I think gets to most of us at one time or another,at least to me it does.I'm sure the good folk here understand. Happy guitar building. Tom.

Author:	Dennis Leahy [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
Brock Poling wrote: You would think this is a simple problem. ... My theory is (and I have nothing to substantiate this beyond a hunch and previous experience) is that the calibration of the physical machine is not always dead on perfect, and this is ultimately the culprit. csullivan wrote: ... 2 things that might be the culprit. ... paper ... it's made from wood and we know what moisture/humidity changes do to wood. ... The printed piece could be perfect coming off the press and be off by 1/16" or more when it reaches its final destination. The second possibility is if these plans are being digitally printed on a wide format black and white laser printer, paper creep can also be an issue. Yep, and yep. I was a professional CAD draftsman, and we had our own large plotter at the firms where I worked (and for a while, I owned one too.). Very rarely, I would need to plot out a detail 1:1 for a cabinet shop or architectural millworking firm, and I noticed the paper had to be left out in the room for a while before plotting (to stabilize), and then the drawings were pretty accurate. Fast forward 25 years, and I had a heck of a time getting my local print shop (with the most hi-tech equipment in town) to print 1:1 guitar drawings. I drew my own guitar designs, and unlike tracings of a physical object (guitar), the plotted drawing with whatever errors would become the template for the bending (male) and assembly (female) molds. I really did not like the idea that whatever happened to be the plotter's current state of calibration, or the plotter operator's mood, got to determine the final shape of my guitar. The first full scale plots off the plotter were at least a full 1/4" off in the worst dimension. After calibrating the plotter, I got drawings that were very close to 1:1, and immediately went home and glued them down to Lexan (before humidity could drastically change the shape) and cut them out. Realize that the vast majority of architectural plotted drawings are drawn to a 1/4"=1' (1:48) scale, and that the plotter calibration is not an issue for those drawings. So, when you go to your printing company, you're asking for a very special service to get drawings that are reasonably close to 1:1. Take them a bouquet of flowers or a box of chocolates and ask real nice. Dennis

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
Brock And Dennis are both correct and i have tried to explain this time and time again. paper grows and scrinks with tempature and humidity. the process of Xerox printing induces a buch of heat to the paper. most of the time it will scring back to a usable state. thoat is one issue with the prints but this issue existest with all printing of all plans unless pin plotted on mylar. which would cost you another 7 to 10 dollars a set. the other issue is the machines calibration. this includes clutch and gear mesh tention to set how fast the print paper moves across the image fuser. That said ther was a scale error in one batch of PDFs that got sent to Stewmac. That was corrected and prooffed several times before the correction was set to the printer. that was the last thing I did prior to selling the forum the sole rights to the plans. that issue has been put to rest. Now if Stewmac is still sell prints from the bad batch i can't address this as true or not. however it is possible that the printer is miss operating, not taking the time to set up truly to scale or the machine is out of calibration. but i can say that months ago the printer got pdfs that were proofed and re proofed prior to me sending them out. Like a few others have said paper prints really should never be measured with a scale or ruller. All the needed dimensions to fabricate the guitar is on the print. If you recived a set that was printed from the at falt PDF you have a honest gripe. If you expect the prints of the plans to be 110% true full scale That likely will never happen due to the nature of Xerox printing on bond paper. So that all know. these plans are now 100% the property of the form and or its partners. i am not involved at all any more with their publication or marketing. But I know for a fact that the Autocad files are perfect and that the most resent PDFs were proofed and re-proofed prior to sending them out to the printer. The first 100 sets that SM sold were just fine the the erro poped up. So give the guys a bit of a brake. I know they are working on the problem.

Author:	Mike OMelia [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
I don't think "giv[ing] the guys a brake [sic]" is the issue here as I, nor anybody else is badmouthing SM... just letting out a little frustration since I was not getting any feedback. All I ever wanted to know was just exactly what the problem was. Also, it is obvious that I missed the in-depth discussion of the problem (that is my fault). Finally, I understand what the issue is. I simply want to move forward with some builds that are in my backlog, and now I feel I have the information to do so. Mike

Author:	bluescreek [ Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Just a little frustration with Stew-Mac
This is a case of " you don't know , what you don't know , till you know it ". Blue prints unless marked SCALE are representational drawings. Never assume that a blueprint is scale. All reasons above are correct , in that when a print is made it is often deflected somewhere to throw off the actual scale. As a machinist and as anyone else that works with prints can tell you , this is not an issue. Use the numbers , that is what they are there for.