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How do you handle a dent on a commission?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23290		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Steve Saville [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  How do you handle a dent on a commission?
I put a nice little ding on the top of a new build. It is on an Adi top, about 2.5 mm long and less than 1mm wide. (That's about .100" by .040" for you non metric folks.) It is nicely centered between the dark grain lines.
CA fill and refinish was OK - but not good enough by my standard for a new guitar.
I'm just curious if there is a standard way to handle it.

Fix it and don't tell?
Tell and then fix?
Hope they don't notice?
Offer a discount?
Hurry up and make another one?
Replace the top?
Offer your first born along with the instrument?
Ignore the customer and hope they forget they had an order? Eat Drink


Here's a picture of mine boo boo
the dent is about an inch north of the low e string bridge pin hole.


Image
Author:  tommygoat [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
I see the dent. I would tell the them, and submit your options. Ask what they want.
Author:  peterm [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
Steve,
you're not the first one with a boo-boo like that one... gaah
I would say the best thing to do is to sand it down to the wood, steam and sand the dent out and repair the finish in that area. It sure beats leaving it like that or giving up your first born.It looks prety small.
Is it a Poly finish? It will be a pain but in the end it will be invisible.
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
Took me a long time just to see it (I started looking for it before I read till the end). Personally if the guitar was for me I would not be worried about it but you never know how picky an individual is.
Author:  Kim [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
If it were me it would be a droplet of water in the dent, let her sit, steam it with a soldering iron blade wrapped in wet 'un-dyed' cloth, let her dry, and then see what you have left to fix before you make any decisions. You may be pleasantly surprised. If that fails to clear it up, drop fill the remainder with nitro, level and buff.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  Jody [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
If it is crushed in and not a chip! if you dont like putting the soldering iron near your top, you can also ( be carefull) dip the corner of a clean rag in boiling water and press it against the divot, using the undipped portion of the towel to protect your hands . I have seen this work on hardwoods such as maple. Jody
Author:  jordan aceto [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
I would just drop fill and forget a little thing like that, it will probably be barely noticeable and i wouldn't sweat it too much.

A side story: Ken Parker was delivering one of his new extremely expensive archtops to a guy, and the customer was doing the whole "oh, its soooo beautiful and perfect, i will never ever take it out of its case i am so afraid to scratch it and spoil perfection" trip, while he was going on like that, Ken sneakily reached over to his workbench and grabbed the nearest screwdriver and WHACK! put a nice phillips head shaped dent right in the top of the guys (already paid for) guitar, before the customer could come out of his stupor and respond Ken said "now you can play the effing thing, and stop worrying about scratching it, that's what i made it for!"

Most of us don't have the sort of clout to get away with that kind of stuff, but i still get a kick out of it.

This is also why it is nice to work on violins, almost anything can be "antiqued" away!
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
That dent looks very fixable. The soldering iron technique works well. If you steam it out properly, it will be invisible. If it is invisible, than don't mention it to the customer. You well never sell anything if you don't allow repairs to dings and scratches. If you can't make it disappear, that is different and you will have to make a judgment call.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
Hmmm, is that somehow related to bridge slotting? Not that I've ever seen anything like that before....

Before you risk making it worse, I'd definitely talk to the client. Most folks are realistic and know that this will just be the first of many dings.
Author:  woody b [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
I've steamed a couple similar looking dents out of Taylors. If it's a poly finish it's pretty flexable. Don't try filling it with anything, it will just make it worse. (again, assumeing it's a poly finish)
Author:  Steve Saville [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
Kent Chasson wrote:
Hmmm, is that somehow related to bridge slotting? Not that I've ever seen anything like that before..........

Yes - I know I should be protecting it while I do that. I will from now on!
Author:  P@uL [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
took me a few seconds to find it as well. i agree with the rest of the answers pretty much. steam out the dent. it actually works amazing dampen a rag and i just heat up a burn in knife on the butane torch and steam out the dent sand and repeat until you think its good enough. i would advice against using ca to do cover ups on the top. i used it in one spot on an engleman top thinking it would be close enough and not notice but it bugs me all the time now idunno
Author:  Steve Saville [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
woody b wrote:
....... Don't try filling it with anything, it will just make it worse. ......

Too late! errrrrrr..

This reminds me of comedian Tim Hawkins when he talks about mom's - They give great advice - just a little late.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
jordan aceto wrote:
A side story: Ken Parker was delivering one of his new extremely expensive archtops to a guy, and the customer was doing the whole "oh, its soooo beautiful and perfect, i will never ever take it out of its case i am so afraid to scratch it and spoil perfection" trip, while he was going on like that, Ken sneakily reached over to his workbench and grabbed the nearest screwdriver and WHACK! put a nice phillips head shaped dent right in the top of the guys (already paid for) guitar, before the customer could come out of his stupor and respond Ken said "now you can play the effing thing, and stop worrying about scratching it, that's what i made it for!"


That's a great story......love it! [:Y:] laughing6-hehe
Author:  Darryl Young [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
Steve Saville wrote:
This reminds me of comedian Tim Hawkins when he talks about mom's - They give great advice - just a little late.


I love Tim Hawkins....and the kids do as well.
Author:  woody b [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
Steve Saville wrote:
woody b wrote:
....... Don't try filling it with anything, it will just make it worse. ......

Too late! errrrrrr..

This reminds me of comedian Tim Hawkins when he talks about mom's - They give great advice - just a little late.


If the finish is polyester you can use acetone to............ "unfill" the CA. Check with Joe White (if he finished it) to make sure before trying this though.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
Be honest with your client
He or she will respect you for that !
It looks as the grain is not dented but broken (crushed)
Steam will only lift part of this.
But may mess up your finish.

Show it to the buyer-ask if it's livable -and take it from there.
If NOT-
I would drop fill the same finish you use .
let it shrink.
Then fill again as needed.
This may take several days.
Use a fine artist brush so you only get finish in the ding.
then level VERY carefully & buff
Mike
Author:  Rick Cowan [ Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
Hi Steve,
Not sure if you saw this in the tute section but Hesh did up a nice 'how to' on dent repairs a while ago. http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10117&t=20604

Hope this helps.

Cheers!
Rick
Author:  Steve Saville [ Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
After talking with my client, we decided to redo the top. I pulled the bridge tonight and sanded the top. I tried to steam the dent out. It did raise enough that I could sand it out.
It is going to be nice again.

Now if I can just learn not to do that ever again! gaah
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
Steve,

Sounds like you made the right choice. Every time I bite the bullet and redo something (which is way to often), I'm happy I did when all is said and done.

Joe
Author:  Per [ Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
I would care more about changing my carefully tuned top by sanding back and refinishing than worrying about that small dent. Most people wouldn't even notice a small dent like that, and those who would see it probably wouldn't care, and IF they did I certainly would offer a discount. I think that being serious about the sound creates the thrust from the customer rather than striving for unrealistic perfectness in the finish. At least to my experience from building classical guitars. But that is not to say that sloppiness is OK...
Author:  schrammguitars [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
Lots of good replies. Some clients are more concerned with looks than sound. I hate building for those clowns. Most of them are beginners who think they are advanced players. Pro players usually don't worry about minor boo-boos like that. I would have tried to steam it out first and if that didn't work I'd fill it.

Now, to make you feel better. Last month I had just about finished with the body for one of my lattice guitars. I had a 24" clamp that I use for my method of attaching binding on the waist of the guitar. ( I use CA) In the middle of the job I got a call. Well I'm a roamer. When I talk on the phone I walk around. Hard for me to sit still. I had my back turned to the guitar and I bumped into it and the clamp fell and put a nickel size hole right through the top! I kept my composure while still on the phone, but was devistated by what just occured. That week I focused 100% on retopping that guitar. Took a week to get it built and retopped. It was a great learning experience because I learned how tough the 1mm thick lattice braced guitars are. I even sanded the edges to about 0.7mm 2" from the edges. I hit it many times with my fist at the bridge and it wouldn't break. I tried pushing on the top and all it would do is bottom out on the A frame so it wouldn't cave in. Finally I took an xacto knife and removed it in about 10 seconds. The top is a lot stronger than I thought it would be. This is another reason I only make the removeable necks on my lattice guitars. It makes replacing the top a breeze.
Author:  Bailey [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
I own 2 classicals for myself to play..One old factory and one handmade. I've yet to put a dent in my 20 year old factory built guitar. I have 4 whoppers in my EXPENSIVE 4 year old. I've come to expect a handmade just comes with dent karma. However, I think I'd let the new owner do the break in dent.
Personally I would treat it as a part of the complete building process that has imperfections and fixes for those issues. If it fixes without sight....then let'r go. If it looks like a fix...then let them know. We are lucky that wood has some forgiving properties in its raw form.

When tracing around my bridge with a new exacto knife, I dropped my knife when finished and it stuck sraight up in my guitar top ( OMG) 1/8 in. inside my bridge mark. Sometimes...we're just lucky.
Kent Bailey
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
Lots of good replies. Some clients are more concerned with looks than sound. I hate building for those clowns. Most of them are beginners who think they are advanced players.

Now, I am NOT trying to be controversial here. Just pointing out that all customers are just that... customers. I would hate for anyone I know read a thought like that from me.

Just saying...

Oh, and I too would have tried steaming first.

Mike
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you handle a dent on a commission?
my best customer is a pro who places equal emphasis on sound, playability, design and craftsmanship. He will reject a guitar with a craftsmanship booboo or questionable aesthetics even if the sound is better than the angel's harps. Maybe he is a clown (he actually says that about him sometimes laughing6-hehe ), but for me he is the major factor in becoming a better builder.
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