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| Notch & Glue X Brace Into Lining of Lower Bout.......or Not? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23280 |
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| Author: | Darryl Young [ Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Notch & Glue X Brace Into Lining of Lower Bout.......or Not? |
Should one notch the lining and terminate the lower bout ends of the x brace to the sides/lining.....or should one fade the braces to nothing just short of the lining? I'm sure there is no right or wrong answer......but I would like to hear the the rational you use for deciding which way to build. What are the pros and cons of each method? Will the top move more/easier in a monopole mode if the X brace is left short of the lining? Are their structural issues to consider and design around if the X brace is left short of the lining? For the record, I'm only referring to the ends of the X brace in the lower bout. Appreciate your thoughts. |
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| Author: | Allen McFarlen [ Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notch & Glue X Brace Into Lining of Lower Bout.......or Not? |
I've done it both ways, but have settled on in-letting them into the linings in the lower bout now. Main reason is mostly a safety measure in that they brace end is supported by the linings, and should the guitar take a hard knock, it's less likely to pop a brace loose. All brace ends are tapered down to approximately 2.5 - 3.0 mm, and are cut just a hair short of where bindings will end up being. This is done because after talking to a few repair people that see a lot of very old instruments in for repair, one thing that they notice is bindings popping loose at the brace ends. No one could come up with an definitive answer as to why. There were lots of guesses, but the solution was not to have the brace ends in contact with the bindings. Easy enough to do if you are thinking about it at the time of shaping and in-letting. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notch & Glue X Brace Into Lining of Lower Bout.......or Not? |
I also have done it both ways. Lately I have been stopping them short of the lining in the lower bout. I'm thinking it is giving me better sound, but.... since I tend to use different woods and change the bracing a little with each guitar, it is hard to say if it really makes a difference. I like what Allen is saying, it makes a lot of sense. Allen, Do you have a feel for what it does to sound to tuck/not tuck? Joe |
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| Author: | Darryl Young [ Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notch & Glue X Brace Into Lining of Lower Bout.......or Not? |
Allen McFarlen wrote: All brace ends are tapered down to approximately 2.5 - 3.0 mm, and are cut just a hair short of where bindings will end up being. This is done because after talking to a few repair people that see a lot of very old instruments in for repair, one thing that they notice is bindings popping loose at the brace ends. No one could come up with an definitive answer as to why. There were lots of guesses, but the solution was not to have the brace ends in contact with the bindings. Easy enough to do if you are thinking about it at the time of shaping and in-letting. Interesting. Wood expands/contracts with moisture change considerably across the grain but essentially none along the length of the grain. Since the X brace is glued across grain (at an angle) wouldn't the end of the X brace place pressure against the binding when the guitar is in very low humidity and the dome shrinks down? Seems it would if the length of each leg of the X brace remains constant. |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notch & Glue X Brace Into Lining of Lower Bout.......or Not? |
2.5-3.0 mm seems fairly high to me .... I guess it all depends on the overall bracing scheme, but I use 50 thou (1.25mm) as the tapered end height on all braces that are tucked. I have a littel gauge that I use to getthe braces close when shaving with a chisle, and then use the same gauge to set a router to cut the notches. Then shave the brace ends until the top or back sits down nicely on the kerfing/sides. Taking them this low gives you a closer approximation to having the braces untucked, but still leaves you with some protection from a knock popping something loose. I have done all my guitars this way and have never had a brace push out a binding (braces right out thru the sides, then trim back when flush cutting or routing the binding ledges. Yes its true that the top will flatten out in periods os low huimidity, but chances are the top/back will crack somewhere in the middle before a brace moves the binding ( I have had a couple clients who let things get too dry, and thats always what happens) |
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| Author: | Darryl Young [ Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notch & Glue X Brace Into Lining of Lower Bout.......or Not? |
TonyKarol wrote: I have done all my guitars this way and have never had a brace push out a binding (braces right out thru the sides, then trim back when flush cutting or routing the binding ledges. Yes its true that the top will flatten out in periods os low huimidity, but chances are the top/back will crack somewhere in the middle before a brace moves the binding ( I have had a couple clients who let things get too dry, and thats always what happens) Curious, do you think the outcome might be different if the ends of your braces were thicker/stronger than 0.050"? Possibly the thinner end of the brace can't exert enough pressure to move the binding? Sort of thinking out loud here..... |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notch & Glue X Brace Into Lining of Lower Bout.......or Not? |
Maybe Darryl .. but why would you want the brace ends any thicker ???? I want the edges of my tops to MOVE ..thats where bottom end comes from, like the surround on a woofer .... Some one years back on the MIMF said somehting that still rings true to me .. bracing ideaology is simple - make the bracing stiff where it needs to be ( hmmm ... bridge area ???, end of the neck/FB??), loose where it needs to be (hmmm ... edges ??? ).. ... you dont need stiff bracing at the edges of the top .. its already stiff from being so close to the sides. |
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| Author: | hemet [ Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notch & Glue X Brace Into Lining of Lower Bout.......or Not? |
One of the big names is building, I think if was Alan Carruth but I dont remember for sure, said that the perimeter is where the treble lies and the middle is the bass. Personally I dont know but he is quit the tester. |
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notch & Glue X Brace Into Lining of Lower Bout.......or Not? |
As Tony pointed out... The top is already massively stiff at the rims.. so the braces going under the linings is mostly insurance.... In my own mind... you will probably have a low risk of popping braces off the top if you do either of 2 things: 1. Tuck them into the bindings at whatever thickness you choose 2. Feather them away to nothing over a LONG distance (A couple inches).. this way, the stiffness gradually decreases until you match the stiffness of the top before the linings... Good luck John |
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| Author: | Darryl Young [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notch & Glue X Brace Into Lining of Lower Bout.......or Not? |
Any commet on how the tone is affected by tucking vs not tucking? |
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| Author: | Darryl Young [ Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notch & Glue X Brace Into Lining of Lower Bout.......or Not? |
I wouldn't want anyone to give away a "trade secret" or something that gives you a competitive advantage........but sure would like to hear some experienced opinions how inletting vs not inletting affects the sound. |
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