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Another really useless question about top woods
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Author:  Christian Schmid [ Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Another really useless question about top woods
I had this thought while driving. So German, Italian, Carpathian,... spruce are all the same species. Yet apparently, there are some more or less meaningful differences between them when used as a guitar top. And I guess altitude of the trees, the soil, climate,... can all have an effect on the cellular structure of the tree, so there may indeed be differences (as a newbie I wouldn't know :mrgreen: )

So what about the other spruces. Take Sitka for example - some of it comes from Alaska, some of it from British Columbia, and some probably from other places in North America. Has anyone noticed differences between Canadian and Alaskan Sitka in terms of the sound? I mean some of the forests are probably further apart than Germany and Italy, so there should be... idunno

In case you wonder why anyone should ask such nonsense - I was just doing final setup of my second guitar when I noticed that the neck came loose. The lower insert came out, so now I have to place a dowel in and redrill... I mean is there a more frustrating point to discover that another repair is needed than just after you put on the first string...and already listened to the sound of the new box [headinwall]
Anyway...the one string sounded very promising...I used Sitka by the way...from Alaska.

Christian
Author:  truckjohn [ Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Another really useless question about top woods
Yes. Why wouldn't there be some variation in wood properties caused by climate and growing environment?

Simple example.... A "Yard" tree vs a "Forest" tree... grown 1-mile apart. Same species... Maybe even for the sake of argument... 2 seeds out of the same cone.

In general, the lone "Yard" tree will have larger growth rings and be much harder/denser/stiffer wood... Why? Well.. amongst other reasons:
Less competition = faster growth
No forest = the tree has to be able to withstand wind, rain, and snow all by itself = harder wood
Fertilizer and more water = faster growth....
Different minerals = different growth as well...

The "Forest" tree will probably be taller, straighter, and have less lower branches....
Why?... It grows in a forest. It will also probably have fewer nails, horse shoes, and metal things embedded in it...

Hope this helps

John
Author:  TonyKarol [ Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Another really useless question about top woods
tops from the same bolt can and will exhibit differences .. you need to evaluate each and every top for its own attributes.
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another really useless question about top woods
Can those people hear the differences they talk about when they don't know what the wood is in advance?

It's plausible that there are differences on the average between, say, Swiss spruce and German spruce, but with the range of variation so wide there's so much overlap that you'd be hard pressed to assign any one top to one country or the other based on it's specific properties. Heck, I have a Red spruce top that has exactly the same mechanical and acousic properties (except for damping) as a Western Red cedar top in my stash. They're supposed to be 'way different!

I seldom get through a day without thinking of what I call Feynman's Dictum: "You are the easiest person for you to fool". Which leads to the paraphrase: "O'er species of tops let fools contest, that top sounds best that's built the best."
Author:  truckjohn [ Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another really useless question about top woods
Since I am feeling *Extra* helpful today....

I would guess the German spruce top tends towards a sausagy/vinegary/cabbagy sound with a hint of ginger and cloves.... Sounds great when drinking Beer.

The Italian spruce top is distinctly Mediterranean with a sound reminiscent of Olives, Rosemary, Oregano, Warm sunshine, and disorganized politics... Sounds great with Chianti

and the Carpatihian spruce.... well, there is much more variation in those... Outwardly, very "European" but if you listen close, you pick up the Hungarian, Turk, and Mongol overtones...

Of course, don't mistake them for American spruce -- All mixed up... but very loud and in your face. These seem to sound even louder with cheap beer....

Cheers

John
Author:  Alan [ Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another really useless question about top woods
Alan Carruth wrote:
Can those people hear the differences they talk about when they don't know what the wood is in advance?

It's plausible that there are differences on the average between, say, Swiss spruce and German spruce, but with the range of variation so wide there's so much overlap that you'd be hard pressed to assign any one top to one country or the other based on it's specific properties. Heck, I have a Red spruce top that has exactly the same mechanical and acousic properties (except for damping) as a Western Red cedar top in my stash. They're supposed to be 'way different!

I seldom get through a day without thinking of what I call Feynman's Dictum: "You are the easiest person for you to fool". Which leads to the paraphrase: "O'er species of tops let fools contest, that top sounds best that's built the best."



Thanks Alan (THE Alan)! I don't have the experience to be able to tell the difference myself and often wondered about this.

Alan C (not THE Alan C)
Author:  Mark A Thorpe [ Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another really useless question about top woods
Nicely done John
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