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In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=22981		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  David Newton [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
I have never built a guitar of Brazilian or Madagascar Rosewood, but I have used it for fret boards, bridges, binding, and other trim. I have several guitars worth of both kinds, for a customer who wants to upgrade. I know the Brazilian is probably the last I'll get, but the Madagascar, seems I can get it at a fair price, currently.

I'm not a rich man, but when I work this wood, I feel like a king!
I wish I was richer, so I could stock up on this beautiful wood, it is a joy to work.

I often think I shouldn't have put my savings into a stock mutual fund, gaah but bought select woods instead, to sell to the younger guys, when I'm too weak to work anymore.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
Not a bad investment idea really...prices will only go up!
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
It used to be a good investment, prices are already high up and the fancy figured pieces gone. Currently can't get a well QS set for less than 300$...
Author:  TRein [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
Please read this (and research on your own) before buying any more Madagascar rosewood:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/03/090324-lemurs-looting-madagascar.html
I read that 90% of Madagascar's forests are gone, and that 90% of all Madagascar's species are unique to that island.
The country of Madagascar underwent a coup last March. There are some dedicated rangers and conservationists in Madagascar trying to preserve the remaining forests. However, since the coup and breakdown of the rule-of-law, armed thugs are using intimidation to cut down the remaining rosewood trees for export. Guess where the wood ends up, guys and gals.
Sorry, but no guitar is worth the devastation being wreaked on Madagascar.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
That's ugly. Didn't hear about this coup before. A while ago, must have been before it, an European supplier told me that madrose is going to be soon very hard to get because the government put some heavy export restrictions/ or mill restrictions, smth of this sort.
There's no wonder they are plundering everything possible if the political situation is gone south [xx(]
Author:  Dave_E [ Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
The forces that need to enforce illeagal logging there need to to it. As long as the wood is here, already cut for stringed instruments, it's leagal fair game as far as I'm concerned. What good will not buying available stock do anyone? :?:

Dave
Author:  Pat Foster [ Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
I think the point of not buying it, even if it's already here, is to reduce demand and thereby its value.

Pat
Author:  truckjohn [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
I think another possible answer is to try to develop available alternatives that are easier to source and sound at least as good -- Black locust, Osage orange, etc.

If customers WANT Osage Orange guitars more than Mad Rosewood guitars and believe they sound better... it will help the Rosewood demand problems.... because there doesn't seem to be much of a shortage of Osage...

Unfortunately, very few customers know anything about these alternatives... so are scared to plunk down the cash on an unknown.

Thanks

John
Author:  David Newton [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
Pat Foster wrote:
I think the point of not buying it, even if it's already here, is to reduce demand and thereby its value.

Pat


Back in the mid - late 70's Brazilian Rosewood was being talked about because Brazil was limiting raw logs being exported. Sets were $35 - $50. Guitar building folks said "stop using it, decrease the demand, save the trees".

How's that working out for you?
Author:  Randolph [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
What a drag! I guess the guitar I'm working on now will be the last Made Rose one I build. Too bad. I love the stuff. This poor planet needs help. gaah
Author:  Jon L. Nixon [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
By the time the importation of BRW was banned, there weren't many trees left to save.........
Author:  Pat Foster [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
David Newton wrote:
Pat Foster wrote:
I think the point of not buying it, even if it's already here, is to reduce demand and thereby its value.

Pat


Back in the mid - late 70's Brazilian Rosewood was being talked about because Brazil was limiting raw logs being exported. Sets were $35 - $50. Guitar building folks said "stop using it, decrease the demand, save the trees".

How's that working out for you?


Trouble was, people didn't stop buying it. Seems to have worked better for ivory, though.

Pat
Author:  Brock Poling [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
truckjohn wrote:
Unfortunately, very few customers know anything about these alternatives...


or want a bright yellow guitar. beehive
Author:  Darryl Young [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
truckjohn wrote:
I think another possible answer is to try to develop available alternatives that are easier to source and sound at least as good -- Black locust, Osage orange, etc.
John


Anyone have pics of Black Locust? What does it look like? I doubt I've ever seen Black Locust.
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
I agree with all the statements and concerns about using these woods. But I still believe that what we guitar makers use does not amount to a hill of beans.
Its the veneer mills and furniture manufactures. Not to mention the insane amount of deforestation by burning that is happening. Clearing for farm land etc..
Author:  Flori F. [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
Brock Poling wrote:
truckjohn wrote:
Unfortunately, very few customers know anything about these alternatives...


or want a bright yellow guitar. beehive

Actually...has anyone ever dyed Osage Orange? I find its color a bit painful myself.

By the way, I bravely volunteer to try it out if someone donates a set. laughing6-hehe What? No takers?
Author:  David Newton [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
I'll chime back in here with some more of my opinion, I'll try to be as nice as you others so far.

If the wood is legally offered for sale in my place of residence, I see no ethical reason not to buy it. The political reasons not to buy it are hazy, and there are three sides to every argument. Who's to know if your boycott will not hurt the one you think you are helping?

I can legally buy elephant ivory in the US, and think it is helping conserve living elephants by making them economically valuable to the folks who own them. That said, I don't buy it.

I have to make sure in my own mind I am doing what is right and above the law.

I never bought any Brazilian Rosewood, starting way back then, and the outcome is only that I never had any to build with. There still seems to be wood floating around, and if my memory serves me, the folks who were calling for boycotts, built with it, and still build with it.

To say we guitar builders don't use any amount to matter is under question by me. Who else uses Brazilian Rosewood? I've never seen furniture offered out of rosewood, but I see guitars all the time. Same with all the rosewoods. Since we pay more per pound than anyone else for it, most of it goes to us. I think guitar building is the primary reason there could be no more Brazilian RW in the future. But if I wanted to build a guitar and I could legally buy some, I would.

They say Honduras Mahogany is becoming scarce, and now is restricted. I like to build with it and I'm glad I put up some stocks of it, and if I can buy it legally I will continue, with a free conscience.

I didn't rant, did I?
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
Ever see Brazilian wall paneling? Brazilian hardwood Flooring?
Again, burning it for farm land.


I still say what we use is small beans. NOT that its the "right thing to do" , im not passing judgment, just that the impact pales in comparison to what other industries do, or have done.

There is also an argument for not using legally harvested , woods, ivory etc. It continues to wet the appetite of the consumers.

Its a personal choice we all have to make our selves I guess..
Author:  Randolph [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
I tend to agree with Lance. A few years ago I read an article that was written in an attempt to expose the truth about deforestation in south america. In the survey they found that for mahogany, 90% was going to the Japanese, 7% to the U.S. and the other 3% to various other countries around the world. What Japanese buisinesmen had learned to do was to buy up huge tracts of land in the amazon, mexico, south america etc. and clear cut it. Import all the lumber and sell the remaining land for farm land.

For mahogany at least, this would seem that as guitar builders (being a very small percentage of the 7%) our usage would seem to amount to a hill of beans.

I also agree with David in that the picture is hazy, and it is hard to tell what really goes on politically, especially for us who really just want to spend our time in the shop with great wood.
Author:  truckjohn [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
It looks like brownish/yellowish wood. Reminds me of a yellow/brown looking ash.

Its most common use is fence posts because it doesn't rot quickly.

Good luck.

John

Darryl Young wrote:

Anyone have pics of Black Locust? What does it look like? I doubt I've ever seen Black Locust.
Author:  Christian Schmid [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
A question for the (semi-) professionals:

Do you think you could make a living if you would market yourself as a "green" luthier, meaning you only use sustainably harvested wood? You would obviously limit yourself in the woods you could use, but some players might like playing a "green" handmade guitar...

just a thought,
Christian
Author:  TRein [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: In praise of Madagascar Rosewood
The question was not burning in the Amazon. It is the deforestation of Madagascar and the break down of the system in place to preserve what little is left of the forests in Madagascar.
If the wood languishes on the suppliers' shelves, they will not buy any more from their suppliers, etc. The boycott has had a long and storied history in this country and has been used to great effect. True, Madagascar rosewood is legal to buy. But how many agencies can there be scattered throughout the globe that try to promote sustainable logging? Do we have to rely on agencies like FSC and CITES to dictate to us what the responsible thing to do is?
Burning in the Amazon is difficult for us Gringos to understand. How can governments be so short sighted, we ask? The burgeoning population Central and South America makes burning forests for farmland a complex issue. Yes, it is terrible and wasteful and on a scale that makes us little hand-builders look like a drop in the ocean. But it is a bit of a smokescreen to use that level of destruction as a gauge to somehow justify what we do when we use exotic woods in our instruments. We are part of the music industry and if you add up all the musical instruments made throughout the world (string, percussion, wind, etc), your tally would not be insignificant.
I am not opposed to using exotic woods. The folks who live in the parts of the world where these woods grow are entitled to make a living off their enviornment. It is not like they can just get an office job instead. However, I believe it is our responsibility to research where our woods come from, how they were harvested, and if the local loggers and concessioners derived a measurable benefit to their quality of life, rather than just a cog in a multi-national that derives most of the profits.
These are the goals that the FSC and others are trying to promote. We simply don't have to rely upon them to do all the policing. When we read stories like the one I linked to, we can take action ourselves. The destruction in Madagascar is not about burning forests for farmland; it is about greed and violence and grabbing what ever can be sold for a quick buck.

p.s. Someone should start a thread on Green Lutherie and discussions on woods we have right here that might yield excellent results.
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