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help with the finish on my first, please.
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Author:  Heath Blair [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  help with the finish on my first, please.
the finish has easily proven to be the most challenging part of this first build. im burning through left and right, i sanded a small spec of something out of the top and now there are witness lines (i think thats what they are called, showing my ignorance here) where i touched it up, and im just not getting the level of shine i was hoping for.

ive brushed on ktm9 and the finish, aside from not being level, looks fabulous before i go to level sand. ive now sanded all the way up to 2000 and then hand polished with meguiars number 17. it looks ok, but not the level of deep glossiness that i want. im limited to hand sanding and buffing at this point. i was looking for other options at LMI and noticed the micromesh products go up through 12000 grit. is that going to get me where i want to go?

also, do i just need to do some more sanding and buffing to get rid of the witness lines on the top? im afraid to sand through anymore places as this is the second can of finish ive ordered and thats getting expensive. any help greatly appreciated.
Author:  Ken Mitchell [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
Heath,

Others will surely chime in here, but I think that you may need to get at least a fine buffing compound to get you to the final stage with no sanding marks. And I don't know about the #17 Meguiar's, but you may need a swirl remover or some other type of final buffing product, like the 3M Finess-it and Perfect-it combo. I've been trying to get a system going as well, and am getting close(r). You may be able to do a search and find some 'finishing schedules' that people use. Then you can work out your own.

Good luck!
Author:  Heath Blair [ Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
ken, thanks for taking the time to reply. i think where im at on this one is... done. im not sure i have the mental energy left, honestly. ive been going round and round with this and i think im just going to move on. its shiny enough and i will definitely look to improve on number two.

heres to actually finishing my first.

thanks again.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
Heath;
Did you put KTM9 on bare wood?
This has nothing to do with the witness lines-You should spray or brush a coat of Shellac first to keep the wood from swelling with all the water in the finish.

What do you mean I've brushed on KTM9 & the finish ?

I spray shellac-fill the pores(sometimes twice)-sand back to wood-spray shellac-then top coats of Stew-Macs waterbased -5 coats-level sand with 320-I lay down a medium coat -not heavy-
I do not want see sanding marks when the first coat after sanding is sprayed-I use a HVLP gun at #40 or so .
spray 3 more coats(more if yourpores are showing) -then let cure for a week .
Then wet sand with 1200 or 1500 wet or dry.
The buff with Stew macs compounds-witness lines completly disappear !! the finish is high gloss & beautiful !


Mike [:Y:]
Author:  Mitch Johnson [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
I've only buffed out one guitar, but I agree with Mike. I wet sanded to 1200, then used stew macs medium buffing compound, then fine, and then swirl remover. It turned out great. Stew mac sells buffing pads that fit into a hand drill that take out a lot of the grunt work.
Author:  the Padma [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
Shellack, then spray on the finish, then buff...with a buffing pad on your drill and some buffing compound from Stew Mac will give you that finish you after.

the
padma
Author:  Heath Blair [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
Heath Blair wrote:
ive brushed on ktm9 and the finish, aside from not being level, looks fabulous before i go to level sand.


sorry, mike. i was essentially writing the way i speak and since you read what i wrote i can understand why that might have been difficult to understand. basically what i meant is that before the finish is touched with sand paper it is super glossy. just not level. the only reason i made that comment is to say that i know the finish is capable of being super glossy, which is what i like.

i think ive buffed all of the witness lines out, so thats good. after sanding through 2000 i went to LMI's "cut polish" and that just left scratches everywhere. seemed to be far more coarse than the 2000. so i re-sanded through 2000 and used LMI's "fine polish." both of these polishes are of the liquid variety by the way. heres a link: http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproduc ... +Compounds . thats where im at and maybe where i end. its decent, but not great. maybe ill order the "super fine" polish. any suggestions? any suggestions for swirl remover or something finer than LMI's "fine polish" that i can buy locally?
Author:  Heath Blair [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
oh, also... i did seal with shelac both above and below the pore filler so i think im good there.

the Padma, thats a good suggestion. i might have to get a pad for my drill. my shoulder already hurts. thanks.
Author:  Ken Mitchell [ Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
Mike,

I noticed that you do NOT use the Stew-Mac Sanding Sealer.

Mike Collins wrote:
I spray shellac-fill the pores(sometimes twice)-sand back to wood-spray shellac-then top coats of Stew-Macs waterbased


I've been trying to use the sanding sealer on a current refinish, and it doesn't seem to be really getting me anywhere. On a previous build, I just went straight from shellac to topcoat, and the final finish turned out fine.

Is there any reason to use the Sanding Sealer? Stew-Mac says that 2/3 of the final finish should be seal coats. Can you build the seal coat with a few more coats of shellac instead of sealer (which is essentially what I did recently)?? I'm thinking that the answer to this question is a 'duh, evidently you can!'
Author:  Mike Collins [ Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
Ken; I only use the sanding sealer to fill any large ding !
It might make the job easier but I'm used to the shellac,filler,sand,shellac,final finish coats.
Sanding sealer has allot of solids in it ;that's why it buils so quickly.
But it seems to be a usless step for me.I hat to fix something that's not broken ! [:Y:]

mike
Author:  Ken Mitchell [ Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
Mike,
I agree. I think I'll just go without sealer. That was working fine for me. I *DO* put several coats of shellac on now, which seems to build a base coat to work from... and is probably the same as using a sealer coat, per se.

Thanks for the feedback!
Author:  Mike Collins [ Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
Ken ;
I have Blond,Lemon,Orange & Garnet shellac flakes.(de-waxed)
I blend some to get the color I want .
try it on scrape pieces !!
www.shellac.net

I also use more shellac coats then I used to because it makes the wood grain look so fantastic !!
Also shellac dries so fast that i think it acts like a filler-but it does not fill the pore -it just seals it so it does not look so deep !

happy gitar making !!

Mike ;)
Author:  Heath Blair [ Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
well, im not sure if anyone is paying attention to this thread any longer, but here is a bit of an update. i took the padma's advice and chucked up a 5" micro fibre bonnet in my cordless drill. i also went to a local auto body store and bought some 3M "perfect-it." that combo definitely took things to the next level. the finish looks great from afar and definitely good up close, but i can still see swirl marks when held at an angle up to the light. unless anyone has any advice, im going to move on and try again on number two and three. thanks.
Author:  Mike_P [ Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
do you have a 5" random orbit sander with hook and loop?

Bosch makes foam applicator pads and wool bonnets...use the foam for application and use, and the wool for the final polishing...I find there is a trick to what speed you have the sander set to for the wool bonnet...I usually end up at a bit less than half speed
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
I was not totally satisfied with my buffing until I got a buffing arbor, wheels and menzerna compounds. The swirl marks are probably from the sanding and not buffing but the menzerna medium then fine on a buffing wheel should take them out.

By the 4th and 5th guitars I am happy with the results but still can improve some more. The easiest finish is Joe White, but for me that would take away a lot of the pride in my work so I struggle on. As a hobby builder I enjoy all parts of the process, from wood selection to set up and everything between.

Fred
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
Good Luck, the first one is always the hardest.

Joe
Author:  Ken Mitchell [ Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
Heath,
Glad to hear that the finish is looking better. From my personal experience, I think it's a trial and error process. It's hard to develop a feel for when to move to the next grit. I've gotten to the final buffing stage SO many times only to see little scratch marks appear if held at juuuuust the right light. And then you have to go back - or rather - figure out just HOW FAR to go back through the grits, going only as far as necessary. Can you tell a 1200 grit scratch from a 1500? I can't, so I go back that one next step to be sure. But it gets better... eventually :)

Sorry we kind of high-jacked your thread. But it's all about finishes, and it's all good (I hope)!

So, if you've got a finish that YOU are happy with, let it go.

And follow the common wisdom expressed here of not showing your mistakes to others (unless they are people you trust, and/or someone who can help you figure out how to fix them next time around)!!

Happy building!
Author:  Heath Blair [ Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
Ken Mitchell wrote:
So, if you've got a finish that YOU are happy with, let it go.


well, quite honestly im NOT happy with it. i can live with it considering that it is my first attempt though. thanks for the encouragement. im going to go get the neck set now so i can hear this thing sing! thanks again to all who contributed.
Author:  Dave Livermore [ Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with the finish on my first, please.
Heath,
I REALLY hope your hard work pays off and the instrument sounds good.
Don't freak out if the first note isn't what you expect. The first note will be the worst it will ever sound. After that, it just gets better and better with age.
The fist set of strings should last a couple weeks, and before you put the second set on, you still won't be at a point where you can believe your ears. It WILL keep getting better and better with age.

And speaking of aging... as I read through this thread, the one thing I missed about you buffing this thing out is the month or so you let it sit before doing so.

If it hasn't set that long, it probably isn't ready to be buffed. It sounds like you're done with the finish on the guitar.
Don't be. Come back to it in a month or so, take the strings, nut and saddle off and try buffing again. You'll probably have a much different experience.

Good luck with it all,

Dave
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