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Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=22889		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  John Killin [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
So it all started when Sniggly gave be a set of top wood to practice joining plates. I was feeling fairly confident with my plane setup and sharpness and decided to give it a go.

In the back of my mind I'm thinking if I pull this off, I could probably just use this free top.

I'm able to get some decent so I started to plane away. I made some adjustments along the way. Learned some about how the plane works (there is always something else to learn). I worked my technique so I was close for most of the board with small gaps at spots. I'm thinking that is easy, a couple more swipes with good technique and I'm there.

Well after turning a Dred size top to a 00 with wings, I'm still off. I am getting a smooth joint for most of the board but it looks like I'm getting tear out along the joint. I would have probably caught on to this if my lighting had been better where I was working. I don't think it is because of the direction of the grain while I plane. Of course I could be wrong.

Here is a pic of what I am getting.
Attachment:
Rough Top Joint.jpg


Any thoughts or tips? I plan to sharpen again before I “practice” again.

Thanks,

John
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
Where's the applause emoticon???

John....Could you tell us a little more about your plane? What's the brand?...what kinds of 'tuning' have you done? What's your sharpening method?

There's a little runout in that small section of the top and sections of spruce like that will make a plane that you think is 'tuned'...not so 'tuned'.

I'm glad to see you practicing on that top. There's more where that came from so don't sweat chewing it up.
Author:  Corky Long [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
Hi there - yes, I've had similar results in the past. What worked for me was getting the plane set up properly (lots of postings here and elsewhere on lapping, tuning a plane), getting it really sharp, not just sharp, but very, very sharp, (ditto on the references) and taking a very fine cut - with a sharp plane you can take a very fine shaving. Also, it looks like you went "against" the grain on that one - perhaps there's a bit of figure on that free top? e.g. the grain is not running exactly parallel to the edge of the top. Try flipping the tops over and going the other direction with your plane -

Good luck!
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
The first thing that I would try is to raise the blade of your plane. Make it so that you don't get any shaving at all. Then lower the blade the tiniest amount so that it only just kisses the wood in a few spots. STOP! That is your final setting. If the plane blade can touch the wood anywhere, the same setting should touch the wood everywhere. As you continue planing, the amount of shaving you get will get longer. Stop planing when you get a shaving that is the whole length.

This requires that the plane bed be flat and the blade as sharp as it can possibly be. Fine Woodworking has an article in the most recent issue where they have experts help guys who are having trouble sharpening. They examined their technique and offered suggestions to correct problems. You might find that you are doing some of the things these guys do. I'm pretty good at sharpening but that article showed me some things that I could do better.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
If your shavings are thin enough they will be translucent.
Author:  John Killin [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
My shavings look good on the floor, but are probably thicker than they should be. I'll try backing the blade out a bit. On some of the shavings, the shaving is fairly consistent but has some small gaps in parts. I’m thinking this is where it is leaving the not so smooth part on the board.
Here is a photo of what I am getting.
Attachment:
Shavings.jpg


Close-up of the shavings
Attachment:
Shavings Closeup.jpg


I'm thinking that they are too thick. I also think I might be fighting some characteristics of this particular board.
Attachment:
Board Runout.jpg


I know these aren't the best photos. (I'm also fighting with my camera gaah ).

The plane is an older Bailey #5. I just put in a Hock blade. I have a couple of good sources on tuning up. I think I'll go through that again just to be sure. I think I'm Ok, but went through the initial lapping steps a year ago when I got the plane. I'm using scarp on a granite surface plate.

Overall I think I'm on the right track which is way beyond where I was even a couple of months ago.

Thanks for your help on this. And Chirs thanks for the practice wood. [:Y:] You saved me from learning this on something expensive.

John
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
John those shavings, for my taste, are really on the thick side. About half that thickness is where you need to be.

If that #5 is tuned right you should be able to adjust your depth of cut....btw you should be able to hold the shaving up and WITHOUT backlighting it should have a small degree of transparency. Measure the thickness...I shoot for around 3 thou thickness. Some will tell you to go to 2 thou and they aren't wrong...just their taste.

I've got your address - and I think I have some more practice spruce out in the shop.

Chris
Author:  Pat Foster [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
John,

You should be able to easily read newsprint through your shavings.

I really don't think runout is an issue here; runout goes up and down across the thickness of the the plate.

Assuming these halves are bookmatched, you'd have the same problem with tearout no matter which direction you plane from; it would tear at the same spot on each half. There won't be a problem with a properly tuned plane, though.

Keep at it. It might cost you a top, but you gotta start somewhere. At some point, it will work and you'll wonder, "Why didn't it work before?"

Pat
Author:  John Hale [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
John on my first top I had problems too, I had to grind the sole on the plane in mines an old stanley 5 1/2 then spent what felt like an age getting the back edge of the blade up near perfect, then the cutting edge and there's still some chip out from its previous incarnation so I avoid that area, after that it wasn't so much in getting the plane sharp enough though I've improved at that, but in getting the joint to candle I ended up with sandpaper taped to glass then finally took one pass with the plane, and hey presto.

I'd also recommend looking up scary sharp on youtube I have japanese waterstones yet that's still my favourite method.
Author:  John Kinnaird jr [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
I too think the shavings are much too thick. I reduce the blade exposure on my plane to the point where the shavings are quite translucent. It does not seem like I am taking anything off the edge at all when I pass the edges over the plane, but I do use the jointer to get it close so that helps keep the process reasonably short. I have an illuminated table and may in the final stages of joining just plane the high spots that show up when the joint is back lit on the table.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
Those chips are too thick. Go for .001" if you blades are really sharp and the chip breaker is also good your plane will take it off with no problem. Did you sharpen the new Blade?
Author:  John Killin [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
I backed the blade out so I was getting really thin shavings. You could see through them. I worked the edge of each plate until the tear out I had caused earlier was gone. I then did them together and I think I have a pretty good joint now. I have a tendency to put to much weight in the middle for some reason. I probably just need some electro shock treatment to correct that problem. But I was able to successfully get the ends down enough to bring it closed.

I'm going to try and glue this one up and see how that goes. Who knows it could end up as a sweet tenor uke. laughing6-hehe

I think I'm on my way. bliss

Next I will be working on getting the top to thickness. I’m sure I’ll be back with more questions.

Thanks again

John
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
Watch Todd's video on using a shooting board too. Getting the board without dips at the end or in the middle is what you learn when you learn to shoot.
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
There are people who seem to feel that if you're taking any shaving at all it's too heavy a cut. I wouldn't go quite that far, but.....

Aside from all of the other good advice, which seems to have helped, I'd like to address that roughness. That could be from having the chip breaker too far back. You need to sharpen most chip breakers before they're useful, so that you can run them right up to the edge, with only a hairs' breadth of cutter showing. If the chip breaker isn't sharp the shavings can jam in the gap between the breaker and the iron, and choke the plane.

Another thing that can lead to a rough cut is too large a throat opening. The front edge of the throat pushes down on the wood just ahead of the cut, and helps keep it from splitting, so the more cross-grained the wood is, the smaller the throat opening you need. Flat cut spruce counts as a cross-grained wood, since the hardness of the latewood is mso much higher than that of the earlywood, and the earlywood is relatively weak. Cutting even a little bit against the grain can tear out if the throat is too open or the chip breaker too far back.
Author:  John Lewis [ Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
John-

You have the problem solved but check out this site about plane fettling - https://home.comcast.net/%7Estanleyplanes/planes101/planes101.htm. Also this article by David Charlesworth - https://home.comcast.net/%7Estanleyplanes/planes101/tuneup/tuneup.htm.

Good luck-
Author:  John Killin [ Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rough Results Shooting a Top Joint
Thanks for all the tips everyone. What I have learned from this is that I still have a lot to learn. I'm closer, but still working for that edge. But I'm getting there.

So the things that have helped me,

The shaving should be thinner that I was doing
I need to hold the work better
I really need to understand the why to the plane setup

All things to work on.

Oh and don't practice on the good stuff.

Thanks again,

John
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