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Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
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Author:  stan thomison [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
I would not normally do a post like this, but having hard time getting a hold of some folks and need to get this done quick, so thought this may be best to get info. quick.

I have a problem never encountered by me or any shop worked at. I have a commission from a pro player with some of the local shows here in Branson. He has played and recorded on a guitar I built for another such player here and loved that one. Just a basic SJ I do.

Here is the problem. He decided to "research" and decided on that research he wanted the body as close to 5" at the butt as possible and then about 4.5" at the neck. After his research his comment to me was he was sure this thick boy would give him much more volume, bass and better separation up and down the neck. I am not a player, much of a researcher, or have anything to compare this with, nor have I seen or heard any guitars this thick. I was very concerned with playability issues over long shows and recording as he says he wants to do with this. After many conversations and e-mails, and his insistence, I went along with him as he is paying for the thing. In fact paid the deposit and start money.

I did it the way he wanted, after showing him rims before bending and how thick it would be with top and back on, and with issues I had stated before. He continued to insist on this build so went ahead. Long story short, when I finished the box yesterday, and seen how thick it is, I was even more concerned (4.93 butt and 4.45 neck) Kind of reminded me of one of those Mexican basses I see in bands (not that thick, but way thick.) Before continuing with it and cutting channels, I called him and insisted he come look at the box and hold it before continuing. Had nagging thing in gut this was going to be a problem from the start. Once he came, seen and held the box he was as he states "astonished how big it is" and "this may be hard for me to play". He is not a real big guy, nor have long arms.

He does want me to continue though and either build if absolutely have to a new box, but if any way possible to save this one and fix it to a thinner box (my normal SJ or Dred thickness) He loves the EIR from the Grizzly "wild stuff" I built this with. Can't just make new rim for the back as would look silly. I told him I would do whatever, but I would not under any circumstance return the deposit or start money as I tried many times to talk him out of this idea he had. This again from a playing point as don't know if his argument for doing this is right or wrong nor do I even care about that one way or another on that subject. I also informed him and not negotiable there would be more charge for either new box or repair, for the same reason in amount of communication and his insistence. He finally agreed to that

Since the channels had not been cut for lining, taking the back of was not an issue, except the heat on the plate join and the braces. There didn't seem to be much separation in the brace glues. but there is in the plate join and that won't go back due to the braces. I have decided in essence redo the back just to make sure it is all right. Am I on the right track there?

I though except to spending a lot of time at the radius dish and sanding them to get rim to right height for right body thickness, can think of way to to it. Any ideas or other ways? Want to just fix this box if can. I know will have to redo the lining. Only doing the back, and can't of any reason to remove top and sand that down also. Just want want this done.

Thanks
Author:  jordan aceto [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
Just so we are understanding you correctly,

- the back is now off, but the seam has separated due to heating, you plan on re-doing the back, which i assume means planing off the braces and re-jointing, you have adequate room to do this because the binding channels have not been cut yet. How many of those assumptions are correct?

- You need to reduce the height of the sides, i would recommend sharpening up a block plane and going to town, it will be loads faster than sanding and won't give you a decade of shoulder problems, if you do this watch that grain direction!

- You maybe need to vent about a frustrating experience where your valid suggestions were unheeded, leading to a lot more work for you, for probably not enough extra cash, i feel ya, lots of us probably have stories about customers who were convinced that their unconventional/problematic/unsellable to anyone else/lame idea was the next big evolution in instrument design, until the thing was actually in their hands, at which point they say "no this isn't what i want at all, can you..." At least you got to the guy before the finish was on it.

It sounds like the actual fixing of the problem will not be a huge deal, get it done, move on and never speak his name again(until you feel like complaining to your luthier buddies who will understand your pain and maybe get a good laugh out of it)
Author:  stan thomison [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
Jordan
Your right on all of it, particularly just wanting to get it done and out and rest of payment (which it doesn't leave until the original price and what charge for the redo of stuff. Some folks think living and building in Branson would be a perfect marriage, but these performers don't want to pay. Even the bigger one or used to be really big ones.

Yea have back off not an issue as far as redoing that so much. I probably wouldn't have to redo all of it, and could inlay a strip in the back, but this way I know it is done right. So will send it through the drum sander and take off all on it clean it up rejoin the back plates and be done and can then not worry about any future problems. It was for sure just making sure did all right and guy seen what was in for before cutting any channels and finishing the thing. Like have heard, just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be. Like boss says also when he hears or reads "there are a lot of ways to do a certain thing in this job", but just as many things not do to for the same thing. Nice to get commissions, but sometimes pain in the rear also. Most time no hitches, but there are those few who should just play and not worry about designing and build on something they want someone else to build. This guy is a great player, but can't operate a glue bottle nor should he try.

I know very little about planes and that is because to be honest don't use them much except the little finger planes. I get good joins for plates on the joiner so don't even have a shooting board. Would a Stanley or such block plane do? What size? In 7 years and two different shops, not much plane use at all and not seemed until now to need one, so don't want to spend a lot of money for one. Will use one to take down some of the braces on back so not so much sanding them down.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
Stan,

It it were me and It didn't have a powered rim sander (which I do :oops: ) I would draw the line where I want to end up (sounds like a 1/2 inch or so from where you are now) and then use a small saw, like coping saw, and cut just outside the line. Then add your linings and sand to finished thickness with your dish. That is a quick, easy and safe way to get 'er done! I might use a larger saw just for the neck and tail blocks. If you haven't used planes much then there is set up, sharpening, grain direction stuff that you will need to figure out. It wouldn't be worth it (or needed) just for this fix.

Shane
Author:  jordan aceto [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
Yes, i agree with Shane, if a block plane is not in your everyday bag of tricks then his idea sounds better.

A nifty trick if you have a marking gauge or purfling cutter, you could use that to mark the final depth.
Author:  truckjohn [ Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
My guess is that the fellow had read about the old 1920's Gibson NLS and associated knockoffs made during the same era and got the idea that if a little deeper body was Good... A lot deeper was better. Most folks don't really understand that the biggest guitars in the 20's were itty bitty things compared to our "Standard" models today.

I think that on a small body guitar (13-14" across the lower bout) you may gain a little more punch with the slightly deeper body (like going from 4" deep to 4 1/2" deep)... especially in the bass because the air resonance was initially that much higher.

Big body guitars on the other hand already have plenty of air volume.... and so going deeper can run the main air resonance down too low.... Especially if you have nice, light bracing.

I hope all goes well with the rest of this build.

John
Author:  douglas ingram [ Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
Another classic case of a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Shane's advice is good, just keep in mind that a coping saw can have it's blade set so that it cuts perpendicular to the handle, not just in line like a regular saw. I might suggest running a band of masking tape along the cut line. It makes the cut line very visible compared to a pencil line.

I wouldn't recommend my tool of choice as it can easily wreak havoc in the hands of an inexperienced user.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
douglas ingram wrote:
I wouldn't recommend my tool of choice as it can easily wreak havoc in the hands of an inexperienced user.


Sawzall? laughing6-hehe

Just joking
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
SteveSmith wrote:
Sawzall?


Nah, that's not a man's tool. Douglas must be referring to a chainsaw! :twisted:

Imagine Stan and his client.
"-hmm yah, I guess you was right, it's too darn deep :?
-no probs meight, have a quick fix for this: (pulls the chainsaw from under the bench) BRRRRR MRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

laughing6-hehe Eat Drink
Author:  Erik Hauri [ Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
I was going to guess angle grinder.... wow7-eyes
Author:  Jason [ Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
Maybe it's time to build a power rim sander. The charge for the additional work could cover a lot (or all) of it.
Author:  Dennis Leahy [ Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
I would consider marking a line *near* where you want the final box depth, and cutting to that line with a Dremel, using a mandrel and a small, fine tooth Dremel circular saw blade. I'd cut out maybe 8", then put masking tape to hold that part together, then cut another 8", then tape that back together, etc.... (this would be to keep the strip of curved waste wood from letting loose and cracking off a chunk when you get near the end.)

Once that is done, then finish it off with a radius sanding dish.

Try this first on a piece of scrap material that is clamped down - you'll see it is not that hard to cut with one of those blades. However, it is hard to cut anything precisely with a handheld Dremel circular saw on a mandrel, which is why you only want to cut close to the line, and give yourself about 1/16" to sand. In this particular case, don't panic even if you cross the line - remember you're going to remove nearly 1/4" beyond the line for binding anyway. Do apply a clamp before cutting, so you can use both hands to guide the Dremel through the cut. Extra insurance would be to use a base on the Dremel (rather than just using your hand to act as a base), and even if the entire cut is done at an angle, it won't matter unless you go 1/4" past your line.

Dennis
Author:  Jeff Highland [ Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
Not that it helps you now but......
It would have been better to have sawed off the back at ther new line rather than unglueing it. Then you could have chiseled off the linings on the bench.
Author:  stan thomison [ Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
Well I got it done, but a day of the absurd..

First after talking with the client and telling him I probably would be able to make the depth right he was happy.

I was enjoying a morning fly fishing on the trout trophy water below the division we live in (about 1.5 minutes from house) and catching some nice rainbow of 16-18" and a nice brown over 20", when I see the guy coming down to the water. I sort of at that point just wanted to jump into the river, as I new this was going to be a pain. I wish now I would have waded to the other side of the river (really a lake-Tanyecomo) and away from him. Well he then starts to tell me he has talked to a friend of his who is a wood worker and he has a 14 bandsaw and maybe he could saw the box using that. I told him I didn't think that would be a good idea and even so, the saw was not high enough to cut 15.75" box on the side. He kept insisting on this could be done and the guy had a really thin blade, and asked if I would let him have the box, he would bring it back at the right depth he thought would work. At this point of hearing him and loosing several fish talking and getting less and less happy with the guy, I told him if he took it, to keep it along with the rest of the guitar and he could finish it himself along with his buddy and not bring it back. He thought of this and talked to his buddy on the phone and then decided to leave it to me. I then agreed, if I didn't see or hear from him again until he picked it up (with the rest of the cash) He wasn't happy about that, but went his way. Sometimes I guess just gets to a point where the commission or a build isn't worth it any longer.

After fishing and cooling off enough to think things over, I went to Home Depot and bought a coping saw and seen a small "Buck" block plane and bought that, not sure which way to go as of this time, and still a little irritated at the guy and his buddies.

Now through venting and how I did the fix.

I used the block plane. Having been stabbed by a "Buck" knife a few years ago arresting some nice biker guy who was beating his girlfriend up
which is another adventure in sharp things for another time. I felt confident the blade would be and stay sharp. However, before using it, I touched it up on the Tormek.

Looking at the box and trying to figure out how to get an even line around the box, I then remembered having an orphan side of the correct profile, I taped that to the side and then used a white grease pen to make a good even line all around the box. For safety and not wanting to chance hitting a grain and splinting the sides I taped below the line using the top of the tape also as a guide. It then took me about 20 minutes to plane the side down to proper depth. I left the lining in the box to give a larger area for the plane to ride and it also kept the profile somewhat right. Hardest part was the end blocks, but once knew grain and direction to cut, that went smooth. I then took out what was left of the lining, cleaned up the inside of the rims at 120 to 220 paper. I then marked the rims and blocks as normal with some chalk and took them to the dish sanded them to right profile and then put in new lining and sanded and now ready for the back. All total with breaks, about 2 hours or as I look at it $120.00. Will now take the bracing off the back, fix the join of the plates, brace and carve or about $ 300 time. Since the change in depth, I now also have to route out the end graft and plug the old hole, find the center of the end block and do another end graft. That will have to wait for another day, as it is now time to drive the cart to the course for 18, hoping to break 80.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
Alexandru Marian wrote:
SteveSmith wrote:
Sawzall?


Nah, that's not a man's tool. Douglas must be referring to a chainsaw! :twisted:

Imagine Stan and his client.
"-hmm yah, I guess you was right, it's too darn deep :?
-no probs meight, have a quick fix for this: (pulls the chainsaw from under the bench) BRRRRR MRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

laughing6-hehe Eat Drink


Angle-grinder, actually. 24 grit finishing with 100 grit. I've made over 1000 canoe paddles using this tool, not to mention all else that I do with it. In fact, I often do profile sides with it...I can split a pencil line, but if I showed you, I'd be bragging.

Seriously, don't use this tool unless you're experienced. Fast tools make fast mistakes.

Stan, a BANDSAW!!! And he was serious! Man, that would have torn it to shreds, explosively.
Author:  Mike Dotson [ Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
I would consider marking a line *near* where you want the final box depth, and cutting to that line with a Dremel

I've done this and it works fine. Not neat or fast, but it works.

This is a tough spot. I've turned down work I thought was too weird and then seen the results of another builder that took it on and made it work. I've talked customers out of things I didn't think I could do or were bad ideas and OTOH I've gone ahead and taken jobs I wasn't sure I could do and thought were bad ideas and they worked out great. One thing I'm pretty sure I would not do is A: Tell them I was having problems. And B: call them 'dumb' etc. on-line. Anyone that Googles your name in relation to guitars may come across this thread.
Author:  Joe Sustaire [ Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
Okay Stan, here's the problem as I see it.....


You're having too dam much fun!!! Trophy trout stream 1 1/2 minutes from the house, drive the "cart" to the course for 18, I mean, c'mon, no wonder you have no patience for an insistent customer that doesn't have a clue, I'm sorry, but your life is just too good! laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe

Someday this will all be funny, and you'll love it, but it might take a while.

Thanks for sharing this,
Joe
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
Stan...I can't tell you how much I enjoyed hearing this story on so many different levels and for more than one reason! Getting to Branson for some golf some day is still high on my Road Trip list. As you have shown us, there are more important things in life than building guitars...and I hope you broke 80!

Semper Fi, Bro!!!
Author:  Andy Birko [ Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
Dennis Leahy wrote:
cutting to that line with a Dremel, using a mandrel and a small, fine tooth Dremel circular saw blade.

Dennis


Realizing that the deal is done already, if you can hold the box well enough, it would probably be much easier with a RotoZip bit . Using an actual RotoZip tool would be best but I bet it would work fine in a Dremel with or without a base attachment (probably a bit easier with, of course). Practice on scrap of course.
Author:  stan thomison [ Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
If ever have to do this again, which I hope is not the case, nor should it be, I would go same route did, fast, clean and easy.

I didn't tell him had a problem with doing something, I told him the problem for me was the thickness of the box, and that as I had told him before, I thought it would be a problem for him. If I wouldn't have brought it back to him to see before routing channels or completing the thing, I can't imagine the conversations.

As far as calling him dumb on line, I don't care. I have 13-17 commission builds a year and do no advertising nor have a web site or whatever. More than enough. I doubt get googled or yahoo ed much. This guy will not be a problem and is known around to be a guy who knows everything about everything. 28 years as a cop and in USMC (active and active reserve) I may be to direct at times. Took in 2 other orders yesterday so getting more work than care about to do for awhile and until get these done, won't be taking anymore in because still have my free builds to do above commissions (one pays for the other)

JJ come on and we will play and didn't break 80, had a hard time breaking 90. Doing Marshall work this weekend for big tourney. Anyone in the Branson area give a shout, go fishing or golf. I am not complaining, retirement is working out well and if not ever get another commission life goes on, I still have my vets and kids, and they don't complain and I like them more
Author:  Mark A Thorpe [ Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
Ya know Stan if your taking in more commisions then you care too, I have no problem accepting the ones you don't want. :D


Mark
Author:  stan thomison [ Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
Mark don't know if would want my folks they are not high paying and mostly come from folks know from PD or Corps, their friends and relatives. One guy though is the cousin of Joe Diffie I was in Recon with in 60's and was or is in his band.

I know one thing, I am going to contact you for one or two of those cool fly cases. Wish I could get a good bamboo rod.
Author:  stan thomison [ Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
He thought he wanted something I new wouldn't work. I expressed that in numerous communications he just didn't want to listen as he knows more about everything than anyone I know. I didn't experiment with his dollars, I did what he wanted for his dollars and I absolutley know cause and effect of things, been at this awhile and worked various shops to see how things done. Most do what the customer pays for after many communications. Reason didn't finish it as he wanted I was sure once he seen it, it would not be as he had in his mind. Reason for post get an idea of to do cut it down as I don't think most will make one to thick, I never have in my builds. If he had seen it and that was what he wanted, I would have finished it. His problem, not mine if didn't work out for him, his experiment not mine. I have though kept all the communications with him just in case, but the thing is resolved and will brace and put back on tomorrow. Then to the finish room and be done with it. Turned out easy fix, which is what I was looking for. Been in business long enough to know cause and effects of things and how to handle them.
Author:  johnfgraham [ Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
Stan, my heart goes out to you - having to deal with difficult people. They seem to be almost everywhere. I'm pleased to know that you've resolved the matter and can move on to more challenging and rewarding matters such as attemping an approach shot from the edge of the rough or hooking a big one on a royal coachman.

However, being one who hates to see quality wood go up in smoke or relegated to become fodder for wood borers &/or termites - I couldn't help myself from conjuring up a few ideas for utilizing the material cut from the sides.

Hope you will find these ideas useful,

john
Author:  stan thomison [ Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dumb client and repair or rebuild problem
John Love it and who knows Thanks
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