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Buffer Search May be Over
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=22598		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Buffer Search May be Over
Found this motor kit. Combine it with this arbor. Or perhaps the one from Stew-Mac (may be a bit pricey).

But for $200 you get a full size arbor and speed control!

Of course, I present this for your thoughts and opinions before I invest. But right now, I am pretty cranked about the design.

Mike

Edit: I would like to find those buff wheel flanges that SM uses! But the Grizzly does come with flanges, belts, etc. Looks like the old SM model.
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
Mike, that should work, especially with the speed control. I have a similar lathe motor
but with the wider polishing wheels. No speed control yet, may get the one you have listed
in your link.
As it is, I'm constantly turning the motor on and off for speed control, it works but very clumsy. The speed control is a great plus. Let us know if you go that way..

Bruce
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
Mike I assume you've looked at this setup?

http://www.caswellplating.com/buffs/wood_pol.html
Author:  James Orr [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
I have that one and like it.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
Chris aka Sniggly wrote:
Mike I assume you've looked at this setup?

http://www.caswellplating.com/buffs/wood_pol.html


I have looked at that one. The RPMs are a bit high for me. I am not fond of that fact that the motor is not a known quantity (eg, not a baldor, etc). Of course, since some of you have it, you could tell me more about the motor, but Caswell does not say. Another thing is the HP. I have heard many discussions about this. The general concensus is the lower end is better for instruments (to avoid hard flings ;) ).

It is strange that generally speaking, very little is available on the market in the low speed range we need. So much so, that Stew Mac and Grizzly go out of their way to produce/distribute their own arbor systems. I like the SM system. But $500 is pretty dam steep and fairly indicative of the supply problem. I will tell you that the thought has crossed my mind several times to convert my $79 delta grinder (Lowe's) into a buffer since IT has variable speed (universal motor).

Mike
Author:  patmguitars [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
Hey Mike

I tried the bench grinder option and the 3.3 amp motor wasn't strong enough. It would slow down to a halt at the slightest pressure so there wouldn't be any "buffing" happening.

I ended up buying a 3/4 HP 1750 rpm electric motor at a local electronic hardware store. I then got a 5/8 inch arbour adaptor (extra long), 12 inch wheels and buffing compound from Caswell. The entire cost was about $200 CAD. It works perfectly!

If you find that 1750 rpm is too high, you can get a speed control box and install it yourself.

The motor on your link is only 1/2 HP, and I am not sure that it would be strong enough (I'm no expert, mind you). I am fairly confident you could get something a little more powerful and a control box for the same amount, maybe even less, at any electronic hardware store nearby.

I hope this helps,

Pat
Author:  Aaron O [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
I would spend more money on a bigger motor. You don't really need speed control - you have the different pulley sizes on the arbor itself to adjust speed. I run a 2" pulley off a 1725 motor, and attach it to the 4" pulley on the arbor = 800+ rpm, with 12" wheels, surface speed and heat is not a problem unless I stay in one place (even at that speed).

As for spending $200, remember, at about $17 a pop for buffing wheels (x4, I use 6 because I'm lazy), plus Menzerna compounds for $20 (x2), you're looking at another bill. Another bill, and you're looking at the new StewMac setup with the 1" arbor, and you can run 14" wheels no problem, and its complete.

I just redid my buffing setup, and put the motor on the bottom. MUCH better, but I need to make it way lower so I have more room. The motor is affixed to hinges (like Stew Mac recommends) which I saw on another site, and uses the motor weight to apply tension. The low center of gravity helps to stabilize the whole setup (which I finally mounted casters on).

Aaron
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
Aaron, I changed mine to put the motor down below but found the weight of the motor (a 1/2HP job) wasn't sufficient to give enough belt tension. I'm going to rebuild it soon with a 1HP motor (from Grizzly) - that will give me enough power (the 1/2HP is underpowered IMO) and perhaps enough weight to not have to add a tensioner (i.e. rubber bungees) to the hinged motor platform.

Dave F.
Author:  Aaron O [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
I got a 3/4 hp on mine, so 1 hp should have no problem at all. I agree, I think 1/2 and below may be too little. 1 hp would be nice, but I got a deal on a 3/4, what can I say.

Rubber bungees? I just hang it on the belt, with the hinges on the "far side" of the platform. Yup, it looks loose at startup, but after watching Robbie's recent buffing video, I'm not too concerned. I do have a block under the motor platform just in case the belt goes, the motor doesn't drop down while spinning.

Maybe Mike wants to pick up your old motor?

Aaron
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
Well, I just buffed out a guitar using my "drill press buff" setup. I replaced the big wheels (14") with 10" and it worked WAY better. Typical rpm was about 850. No danger of flings or kick-backs. Only problem is it is a bit tight. On my harps, I don't think it will work very well. The mushroom buffs (Caswell) are awsome on the drill press if you have not tried them!! Great for swirl removal and final buff.

To wit: I have decided I am going to get the SM motor and arbor. Why? Big and long axles. 12" length each side of arbor. I hate to part with so much $$, I am a serious tight wad, but when you study the darn thing, its quite nice. I will also get some add-on chucks for mushroom buffs. Again, this is mainly for the harps. I easily buffed an OM tonight on my drill press setup (there are some pics of it in another thread). It works well and is pretty well thought out. The final version (not pictured) includes a support shaft underneath the buff riding in an axle bearing on a wood plank clamped to the drill press bed.

BTW, the EmTech 6000 buffed out sweet, clear, and with a deep shine. I sanded with 320 (palm sander), then hand sanded (wet) with 600 emory. Medium mederna, xtra fine mederna, then swirl remover (mushroom buff). Looks like glass, no blue haze, and it was EIR.

Mike
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
I use the Grizzly bend model . I have a 1/3 HP motor. Yes I can stop it but it does the job and I don't have to worry about it tossing the guitar. This is one area if you don't need more power . I use a 1 1/2 inch pulley on the motor. The buffing unit has a 3 cone pulley. I mounted a 16 inch buffer on one side and a 10 in the other.
This does everything I need it to do. The unit was about 1/2 the price of the stew mac and it is the same thing.
Author:  Mark A Thorpe [ Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
I recently purchased the Stew-Mac set-up. I like it but, when I recieved mine the arbor had a lot of sideways play in it, it would shift from one side to the other by a couple of inches and it would stop spinning very easily. I noticed the pully was loose on the arbor shaft. I had it mounted on the board that they recomend building so I took off the cover on the arbor housing to tighten the pulley. I noticed there where stops on the inside to hold the shaft in position, one of them was loose. Long story short I centered the pulley on the shaft tightened it up, centered the shaft in the housing tightened the stops, now it works great. So if you do purchase one, just something you might want to check to make sure is good to go.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
bluescreek wrote:
I use the Grizzly bend model . I have a 1/3 HP motor. Yes I can stop it but it does the job and I don't have to worry about it tossing the guitar. This is one area if you don't need more power . I use a 1 1/2 inch pulley on the motor. The buffing unit has a 3 cone pulley. I mounted a 16 inch buffer on one side and a 10 in the other.
This does everything I need it to do. The unit was about 1/2 the price of the stew mac and it is the same thing.


John, it use to be the same model. The Grizzly has shorter arms and the arbor diameter is .75" vs 1.0". Also, the SM casing "leans" forward. I think the old SM model and the Grizzly are identical. The question then becomes, are the new design features worth the extra $160 (give or take, and with a motor still to buy).

Mark, are you happy with the motor?

Mike
Author:  Mark A Thorpe [ Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
Mark, are you happy with the motor?

I don't have any problems with it, it starts up nice, it doesn't bog down, the belt slides if I lean into it to much. I have buffed out EM6000 with it sanding up to 600 grit then using the medium compound followed by the fine and it did a great job. I am new to machine buffing so I can't make a comparison to other machines. I like this machine and I don't regret my purchase. This machine is different then the grizzly one, 1" arbor and it does lean forward.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
Fillipo, think you posted in the wrong thread...

Filippo Morelli wrote:
JJ,
Congrats and a good start. My suggestions - I hope they help:
0) You've written quite a bit at the OLF. Consider a section for "luthier articles" or the like. I think buyers like to see content that is about how guitars are made, even when it could be a bit over their head.
1) integrate some gallery software. easy enough to do.
2) You need a lot more photos. The shop page is a great example. No one wants to read pages of text without them.
3) With the bio page, you should have a photo of yourself. Having a guitar made is a personal experience with a luthier.
4) Suggest you get a graphic artist (web person) to take a pass or two on comments. The site looks flat. Color tones are fairly drab. I don't have specific suggestions, but can be improved generally with shading, borders, colors, et cetera. I don't know if you built the site, or a friend or ... . Anyway if it costs you some money it is well worth it, since the web is a key first impression.

Nice work and great start. And most of all, congrats ... now you can learn how to make a small fortune with luthiery ... start with a big one! gaah laughing6-hehe

Filippo
Author:  bluescreek [ Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
Yes I used a Baldor motor , 1/3 HP 1725 RPM. Being a machinist I made arbor bushings to mate the 1 1/4 inch buffing wheels. I have more than enough room to buff a body and it does the job very well , without fear of having the body tossed across the room if I catch an edge. The 2 different buffing wheels wheels lets me change speeds by changing wheels.
I can change speeds with the cone pulley on the arbor but I find I don't need to. The unit glosses up in no time .
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
I have Caswell buffer. It spins at 1100 RPM which I think is too fast for buffing a guitar. If I could find a speed controller that worked on AC brush less motors I would get get one. It has more than enough power to fling a guitar. Fortunately, I haven't actually tested this feature. I have the 12" buffs and I might change to 10" to get the effective speed lower.

Since it is $200 cheaper than the Stewmac buffer, it is pretty hard to resist.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
What is a flung guitar worth? ;)

I think a lot of folks use the caswell buffer. Unfortunately these motors cannot be realistically slowed down.

Mike
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
Mike O'Melia wrote:
What is a flung guitar worth? ;)

I think a lot of folks use the caswell buffer. Unfortunately these motors cannot be realistically slowed down.

Mike


It depends on how well flung it is. They make great conversation pieces.
Author:  Aaron O [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
bluescreek wrote:
Being a machinist I made arbor bushings to mate the 1 1/4 inch buffing wheels.


John,

You need to sell those bushings, and make matching flanges (with a 3/4" hole) that are 6" dia for the larger buffs. . .

Of course the bushings are easy to come by (just got mine in from Grizzly today, mounted them, and whooo hoooo! Balance problems are GONE! And chance to airborn the instrument is lessened), but the flanges, pretty much non-existent.
Just a thought.

Aaron
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
http://www.mcmaster.com/#buffing-wheel-flanges/=26omvf

Not cheap, but there they are!

Mike

amd what about these? http://www.mcmaster.com/#sleeve-bearings/=26ov3e

also wondering if plastic can be used
Author:  TonyKarol [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
I know there are lots of premade options out there , but it really doesnt have to be that difficult or expensive ...

mine is shop built - the only thing I had done was to have a friend turn down a 3/4 rod so I could thread it 1/2-13 on the ends to mount the buffs ...I used a plastic sleeve to mount the 3/4 hole buffs (older stew mac ones) The motor is a 1/5 hp (yes thats 1/5) .. and I can push pretty hard before it starts to slow down.. maybe its got better torque, who knows, I got it for free, its 1725. I didnt even bother to left and right hand thread the nuts .. just used the nylon lock nuts - they have never come loose in about 4 years now, since I first put the new buffs on (had 8 inch before this). The motor simply hangs on a hinged plate, belt is tensioned simply by the motor weight. The flanges are 1/4 inch birch ply, cut on the bandsaw, about 4.5 inch or so. Its not all that pretty, but is was cheap and easy to do, and it works just fine.

The pic shows the 8 inch buffs, but they are gone now ....
Author:  Aaron O [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
TonyKarol wrote:
The flanges are 1/4 inch birch ply, cut on the bandsaw, about 4.5 inch or so.


That was my next move, and now that I've seen it done, I think I'll take a shot.

Even with my current StewMac buffer, I've been thinking about a setup using pillow blocks like Tony, but I couldn't picture in my mind how to set it up, until now (thanks Tony). Why go from a buffer to pillow blocks? One thing (two really): length of the rod (the second would be the thickness). The long rod creates a LOT of room to buff. I have a habit of buffing the body, and having the neck/headstock hit the other wheel (as in flung). A longer rod (at 1" or 1 1/4" thickness) should have lots of room and thick enough to not bend (and if 1 1/4" could be done, no spacers needed). Buying the rod, flanges (okay, those can be made) and turning the threads will cost some, and here (in Hawai`i) I could probably spend $100 or so fabbing it up, BUT, I think it would be worth it.

Just my $.02 - Aaron
Author:  TonyKarol [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
If I had to do this over (and who knows, still might ,, student would probably take the existing rod and bearings), I would go 1 inch or 1 1/4 as well .. easy enough here in toronto area to get the pillow blocks pretty cheap at a place called Princess Auto .. kind of a junk shop of sorts, with a surplus section (got new interconnect monster cables for the stereo once .. 70 bucks each retail, on sale for 8 !!), and their own line of tools similar to harbour freight.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Search May be Over
I have the grizzly arbor and a 1/2hp 1725rpm motor and step pully from them too. I don't have any problem with the HP or speed. And I bought the buffs and the other stuff from SM. The one thing I don't like about it is if you aren't careful you can hit the arbor with the body. So if the new SM has 12" to arbor that would be a selling point to me. If they have a complete package I'd go for it and you have the extra cash I'd go for it.
Hmmm, Maybe I can get some 3/4" extension shafts and couplings made for my arbor. I wonder if anyone has them already?
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