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Best Classical Plans?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=22565		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Sat May 30, 2009 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Best Classical Plans?
A friend's wife is taking up classical guitar - I'd like to build him one to give her as a surprise (a freebie).
I've not made a classical guitar yet, but based on what I've seen, technique-wise it's not that much different than building a steel string.
I do need a little help to point me in the right direction to start though:

Q1. I have some very nice Spanish cedar (neck and b/s material) - would that be a good choice, or is it best to stick to EIRW
for the b/s and mahogany for the neck?

Q2. Which plans do you reckon would be the best to use and where can I get a copy?

Q3. Does anyone have a full-scale electronic drawing file of any classical plans, or know where I could find one? (so I can make accurate templates etc.)

All thoughts/ideas gratefully received.

Thanks,
Dave F.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Sat May 30, 2009 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
Oh Dave, once you build a classical guitar you'll have trouble stopping. Like a Pringle, bet you can't stop at just one!

There are many good plans to build from, each model has it character. I would offer that it's hard to go wrong with a good Torres plan such as SE114 offered by GAL. With that you will have established a base of understanding to which to add and compare other building approaches.

And while there are many constructional similarities to steel string guitars, it will be helpful to get some specific technical references for classical guitars. If you don't buy one of the books, then at least get them from the library.

Spanish cedar is good for the neck, sometimes Mahogany is chosen. The different mass will affect the sound somewhat, but you won't be ready to notice. Back and sides would be well made with EIR or Maple. Other woods would work, too, but these are excellent. The traditional guitar is designed/optimized around a Spruce top, though many like WRC.

Good luck, and keep us posted!
Author:  KHageman [ Sun May 31, 2009 2:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
I would also suggest using the Hauser 1937 plans or the Rodriguez Plans. Both are available fro GAL. I believe Dave Schramm has a CD on the Rodriguez as well as the Hauser.
Author:  Martin Turner [ Sun May 31, 2009 3:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
Just about all of my classicals have had spanish cedar necks. IRW back and sides (no dramas with bending) and tops have either been Sitka or Englemann. Englemann acoustically better but you have to take more care of it during construction. I use alot of Allied's Opportunity Grade IRW...its incredibly good value for money.

As far as plans go...I base my instruments mainly on drawings contained in Courtnall's book "Building Master Guitars"

Cheers Martin
Author:  CWLiu [ Sun May 31, 2009 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
Another vote for SE 114.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sun May 31, 2009 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
I have been very happy with the 1973 Romanillos plan. It is a nice, smallish, full sized classical guitar. The lower bout is only 14", though, so cases are an issue. I had too order a custom case to find a fit. I, too, think that SE114 would be a good choice, and Doug is right that it is hard to miss with a Torres plan.
Author:  Colin S [ Sun May 31, 2009 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
For a first classical guitar look no further than the best Torres plan you can get, SE114 would be a good start. Though many have tried I, and many others, believe that a pure Torres is as good as the classical (or rather Spanish) guitar gets. You should at least build this one first to establish a base line against which to judge other later design changes.

Colin
Author:  MRS [ Sun May 31, 2009 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Dave,
If you've never built a classical, I'd suggest looking at the 1937 Hauser simply because David Schramm put together an online apprentice course (google it) ... I think the CD is $15 and walks you through the complete build with photos. Steels and classicals are not the same - consider it an educational investment. Let us know what you end up doing ...

Filippo

There $45 with shipping. I checked because it sounds interesting. Still not a whole lot of money for that info.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
Thanks everyone! It seems the general concensus is that the SE114 plan from GAL would be a good choice, so that's what I think I'll do for my first classical.
I will go with EIRW b/s with either a Lutz, Italian or German spruce top, a Spanish cedar neck, nice silver plated tuners with pearloid knobs (that I picked up at the last GAL auction in Tacoma), Ebony fingerboard/bridge/headplate, Zipflex and pearl inlays perhaps, and I might even be persuaded to have a go at French polishing!

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  Ken Franklin [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
Dave, you probably want a rosewood bridge.
Author:  Colin S [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
Definitely rosewood bridge.

Colin
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
You mean a Brazilian Rosewood bridge? Where d'ya catch such a beast? If not BRW, then which other RW? I have several other types already. How about Cocobolo? And what's wrong with ebony (which I have plenty of)?

Cheers,
Dave F.

P.S. Ken, was that stunning looking and sounding guitar of yours that we saw at the recent NCAL meeting your first classical guitar? I seem to recall you saying it was....
Author:  Colin S [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
BRW, EIR, Madagascan RW all would be fine, never used cocobolo. Not ebony because of the high damping factor in such a low energy system.

If you don't have BRW, then Madagascan would be my choice.

Colin
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
BRW bridge blanks are available from Vikwood.

I used Cocobolo on my #2 and it seems like it's going to be awesome.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
For the back I'd either pick rw or cypress, and for the neck, cedar.
For the bridge, same as Colin said. Madagascar or Brazilian are the best, followed by any other RW. I think I like the "ping" of Madagascar more than braz. Whichever you use, make sure you do not make it too heavy. 20 to 23 grams is best; less is probably OK; more, not OK. Of course 20-23 might not be OK as well if your top+bracing combo is not OK :)
For the 114 plan, I think the top thickness goes down to 0.06 towards the tail. If you care to go that low, pick a good cut of spruce, perfectly quartersawn for best crossgrain stiffness.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
The BIG problem that I'm going to have though, is giving away my first classical guitar build!
I don't think I could do it.....
I'm going to have to make two in short succession, aren't I?

Dave F.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
Dave Fifield wrote:
The BIG problem that I'm going to have though, is giving away my first classical guitar build!
I don't think I could do it.....
I'm going to have to make two in short succession, aren't I?

Dave F.


Yeah, you better plan on making two! You're going to like this first one so much that you will really want to have it around to play.

The second biggest problem that you're going to have is not making any more. Classicals get into your blood. Accept it now, you're going to build more. Resistance is futile.

Say it with me now, "I, (state your name) accept that I am a builder of classical guitars, and I am proud of it."
Author:  CWLiu [ Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
I've made two guitars mostly(not totally) based on the SE114 drawing and I certainly like them better than my other ones. I made my sides thicker and backs thinner, with arched lower-bout/ lower harmonic bar and slighly(.3mm) taller fans. For the thickness graduation of soundboards, I only thin out the periphery of the lower-bout, so my tops are also thicker overall.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
Well, I've finally gotten started on my first classical guitar build. In the end I decided to go with a modified Hauser (1937) with some of the John Bogdanovich modifications, and some of my own.
I'm going to build it using the go-bar deck method and have a bolt-on neck with mortise/tenon joint. I don't see why it should look or sound any different than a solera-built guitar.

Anyway, I have been fiddling around with ideas for the rosette, and decided that it needs to be a natural wood ring with either b/w/b purfling, Zipflex pearl, or black/red/black purfling edges. I did a trial rosette using b/w/b purfling (click on the pic to see it in high res):

Image

What do you think? I need to make the bookmatches a little more carefully and start the rosette nearer the sound hole. Right now the soundhole is 43mm radius and the rosette minimum radius is 47.5mm - it needs to be 45mm. I really like the bookmatched spalted maple look. I think it might look better with Zipflex edging though....what say you?

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
153mm from 12th to soundhole center? What plan is that.

I think right now you have too much meat between rosette and soundhole, 2.5mm is great, 3mm is the max I would approve with :)
Author:  Frei [ Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
Waddy, where did you get the plans for the 14" guitar? I prefer early music on classicals, and think a smaller body is better for that style.(Unless its a real old guitar like a Torrez, wow..)

And what are the reccomended books for a classical build?
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
Alexandru Marian wrote:
153mm from 12th to soundhole center? What plan is that.

I think right now you have too much meat between rosette and soundhole, 2.5mm is great, 3mm is the max I would approve with :)


Hi Alexandru, It's the John Bogdanovich version of the 1937 Hauser, from Stewmac - he's made quite a lot of changes to the original design (note, he's upfront about this in his book). Both his book and the LMI plan show 153.5mm from the 12th to the center of the soundhole. The Brune measured plan (which I also have a copy of) has this as 149mm. Also, JB made the body length 19.44" compared to the Brune measured plan of 19.25". I'm going to go with the Brune measurements.

The test rosette was more to see how the really weak (structurally) spalted maple held up and to see what problems I may encounter using it. One piece fell into two on me as I was manipulating it into place. I think some superglue reinforcement on the back of the spalted maple is called for.

I'm going to do the final rosette in the real soundboard in a minute - picture to follow. Eat Drink

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
Frei wrote:
Waddy, where did you get the plans for the 14" guitar? I prefer early music on classicals, and think a smaller body is better for that style.(Unless its a real old guitar like a Torrez, wow..)

And what are the reccomended books for a classical build?


It's the Romanillos plan from GAL, one of the sponsors here. Most of the plans being discussed are available there, except for the Bogdanovich/Hauser.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
Jim is right. I used that plan and the Courtnall book. I love the plan. I also had a lot of help from folks here on this forum. Check some of the posts from "Shawn", in the archives, on "Romanillos". Also David LaPlante, Joshua French and Colin Symonds gave me a lot of specific information that was extremely helpful. The biggest problem is cases. It's too small for any standard case. Most are made for 14 1/2" or 15" lower bouts.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Classical Plans?
I think Hiscox makes one or 2 with a 360 LB.
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