Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Who Has a Performax 10-20?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=22513		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Ricardo [ Tue May 26, 2009 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Got a couple of problems 1) Snipe at end of board. Manual says adjust infeed rollers - but how? Back off by turning them counter clockwise or tighten by turning them clockwise?
2) Belt slipping. I've tightened the tracking rollers, I'm taking minimal material each pass (< 1/64"), and I'm using a slow feed rate. I'm down to about 3mm on my top and I can't trust that my 10-20 can take me down to 2mm the way its NOT working!
Can any of you 10-20 users clue me in? Thanks
Author:  woody b [ Tue May 26, 2009 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Is the snipe at the beginning or the end of the cut? I'm guessing end, since you said end of the board. Reguardless, I don't think any adjustment is going to fix it unless it's really bad out. Mine had a tendency to snipe the end of the cut on longer pieces unless I'd support the piece as it comes out of the sander. I added infeed and outfeed extension and I no longer have problems. Test on some scrap, and try to keep the piece level as the end goes past the infeed roller.


Added/Edit: As the end of the piece clears the infeed roller it has a tendency to raise the end, causing the snipe. This is because of the weight of the piece hanging out of the other end.
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Tue May 26, 2009 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Howdy Ricardo,

I've got a 16-32. Same thing just a bit larger but the functionality and design is exactly the same. I have a few questions to see if I can help you figure it out because several factors can be potential causes. :) Is it happening no matter what type of wood you're sanding? What grit are you using? Did you check your sandpaper on the roll to make sure it is tightly secured on the roll all the way across? Also, is the snipe all the way across the board or more to one side of the board? At the beginning, middle, end or all throughout the cut at random? Did you watch your feed belt to make sure the speed is consistent all the way through? This will be a good start for us to try and figure this problem out. :D Woody already covered my last question. ;)
Author:  Ricardo [ Tue May 26, 2009 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Guys, the snipe is at the end - outboard side of piece. I support the top as it goes through so I don't think its the weight of the wood causing it. It just started doing it on my spruce top. As has the belt speed variation. I'm using 120 grit and a pretty new one at that. Getting it on tight is another one of my peeves about this sander.
Author:  Steve Marcq [ Tue May 26, 2009 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Regarding the belt slipping, you have to tighten the rollers until you cannot stop the feed belt under power by pressing down on it with your palms. It's probably a bit more tension than you think, for me it is anyways.

Steve
Author:  Steve Marcq [ Tue May 26, 2009 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Regarding the belt slipping, you have to tighten the rollers until you cannot stop the feed belt under power by pressing down on it with your palms. It's probably a bit more tension than you think, for me it is anyways.

Steve
Author:  Lillian F-W [ Tue May 26, 2009 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Ricardo, I have infeed and outfeed tables on mine and have occasionally experienced snipe, but usually when the feed rate is slow, I was taking off too much, or grabbed the board, pushing down as it came out. I thickness with 80 grit, light pass and about 80% feed rate. I always run a board through twice at a given thickness to make sure. Once I'm close, I change paper and do one pass on each side to clean the scratches up a bit.
Author:  MRS [ Wed May 27, 2009 1:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Rich do you have the optional infeed/outfeed tables? I had this issue until i bought the tables. I didn't buy them when i bought the unit but got them when i had bad snipe problems with heavier wide pieces. Let me be clear I had issue with tops but not as bad with the heavier lumber. Tops and backs are easy to support with your hands but larger pieces are not. these tables are a must. A friend taught me a trick whith shimming the outfeed table where it actually slightly inclines that will reduce snipe a lot. This works with planes too. I picked this tip up from a friend who builds furnature. As for adjustments to the rollers the manual does show this.
Author:  MRS [ Wed May 27, 2009 1:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Lillian F-W wrote:
Ricardo, I have infeed and outfeed tables on mine and have occasionally experienced snipe, but usually when the feed rate is slow, I was taking off too much, or grabbed the board, pushing down as it came out. I thickness with 80 grit, light pass and about 80% feed rate. I always run a board through twice at a given thickness to make sure. Once I'm close, I change paper and do one pass on each side to clean the scratches up a bit.

I also found this out about the slow feed rate. I figured slower would be better but i was wrong.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Wed May 27, 2009 5:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Ricardo, it sounds like you got a defective machine, and need to replace it with the one I'm selling in the classifieds. ;) :D

Seriously, though, to try to address your problems...

Not sure about the snipe. An outfeed table is the obvious suggestion, but snipe while sanding tops? I've never experienced that, and the outfeed table shouldn't make any difference with such a lightweight workpiece. I've actually never experienced snipe on my 10-20 at all. The only thing I can think of is that maybe you're trying to take too much material off per pass. I generally turn the crank about 1/12 of a turn per pass. And make sure your first pass is super light as well; the drum should barely contact the wood on the first pass. I've never had to adjust the tension on the hold-down rollers on my 10-20. That may be the problem on yours, if they are set way off, providing insufficient down pressure on the workpiece as it goes through.

I run mine at the fastest feed rate all the time. Light passes + fast feed rate + appropriate grit for the wood (60 or 80 for most, usually 120 for spruce) = success.

If the feed belt slips when you're taking light passes, it needs to be tightened. But don't tighten it any more than necessary to prevent slippage. Tightening it beyond that can cause or aggravate belt tracking problems.

Getting the abrasive tightly wrapped just takes practice. It isn't easy to get it totally tight right at the very ends where it bends and goes into the slots in the drum, but you can get it pretty close to perfect with practice. If the abrasive wrap isn't tight, I can imagine how that could cause anomalies in the sanded surface. It certainly can cause uneven sanding out towards the ends of the drum, and maybe it could do something like snipe if it's really loose.

Unless there really is a defect in your particular machine, it should perform very well for you once you get it set up right, and, once again, take very light passes using a fast feed rate. BTW, I always take at least a couple of final passes without changing the drum height - often five or more, actually. This can help even out the thickness and lessen the sanding scratches.

I've sanded pieces down to about .065" without a backing board and had good results.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Wed May 27, 2009 6:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
I do not have the infeed/outfeed tables and have no use for them. You can make some with ply or MDF easily, though.
If the feed belt is new it takes some time for it to stretch and stabilise. Meanwhile you have to keep a 1/8" allen key close by and adjust the rollers constantly. Do not overtighten them… Also are you using the magnetized plastic guides that go under the tray? They really help.

Putting the sandpaper tight on the drum is another issue, it takes a bit of fussing about at the beginning, but it needs to be as tight as it can go. Otherwise the end gets a bit loose and you get deep gouges in the work. BTW I found their tool to put the paper on totally useless…

As others have pointed out, it is not a planer and best result are obtained with light passes. Otherwise there is too much tension on the drum, and you may get a snipe at the end of the piece when the tension releases.
I always run the feed belt as max speed, and whish it would go even faster.
Author:  Joe Sustaire [ Wed May 27, 2009 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Hey guys, I've got one of these also, bought it used and have been very pleased with it.
Sure beats the heck out of thicknessing plates with just a hand plane and scraper!
I haven't had any big problems but have been running my feed at about 40%, will give your full speed, light touch recommendations a try.

Thanks,
Joe
Author:  Hesh [ Wed May 27, 2009 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Hey Rich - Lots of great advice here which should help you out.

Here's my take on what you are experiencing.

1/64th" is too much material to hoark off in a single pass.... These little machines just can't do that very well. I try to take no more than a max. of .008" off in a single pass (spruce, less with hardwoods) and if I did the math correctly... :o .008 is a bit less than half of 1/64". On my machine, a 10-20 Plus with no infeed or outfeed tables, this equates to about 1/8th of a turn of the crank.

As mentioned you will also notice that after doing a pass taking say .006" off putting the wood through again without touching the crank will often take an additional .002" or so off. This tells me that these machines are engineered for very light, multiple passes.

My guess is the snipe that you are seeing is a result of a heavy hand on the crank where the drum just can't remove all the material it is set to remove in one pass and when it gets to the end of the board the cut is more aggressive.

My feed belt has always fought me too and it wants to go to the right no matter what I have done to adjust this out. I have tried resettling the machine, adjusting the belt numerous times, messing with the white magnetic guides under the belt but all to no avail. My machine continues to go to the right.

So what I did was make sure that I have a spare feed belt in the shop for the day when the original needs to be replaced and beyond that I live with it as is. So far and after a lot of use the original belt is fine and this right tracking does not seem to hurt anything. But I admit that it's annoying knowing that the machine is not tracking perfectly....

In addition when doing double pass sanding these machines, the 10-20 and the 16-32, are known to leave a very slight ridge near the end of the drum (left side) that is quickly eliminated with a ROS. Since the belt on my machine tracks to the right leaving no belt under the left end of the drum my machine does not produce this ridge. So in a way the right tracking is actually preventing the double pass ridge although I am sure this is not how the engineers intended the machine to work.

When installing paper leave about a 1/16 - 1/8" gap between the winds of the paper. The spring clamp on the right side of the drum is intended to take up slack and does so very well but it requires some space between the winds of the paper so that the paper can move when snugged up by the spring. The in*tructions that came with your machine explains this well and recommends it.

In the past my speed was set at about 30% and after reading here how faster is better I went to 60% and my paper now lasts longer as a result. I still don't understand why though.... :) It seems to me that faster would produce more friction than slower but what do I know.... :D

Lastly the drum is hollow with cooling fins. This hollow and the fins are capable of holding a lot of dust and this dust can and will create an imbalance in the drum if not vacuumed out. A piece of 1" tubing from a real hardware store and some duct tape with your shop vac and after unplugging the machine.... you can clean it out very well. If you feel the top of the hood when the machine is running and you feel a lot of vibration its time to clean out the drum. I clean mine after every use.

Try lighter, fast passes taking no more than .008 or less off at a time and see how it works.
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Wed May 27, 2009 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Hey Ricardo,

Looks like everyone covered it pretty well since the last time I checked in. :) Todd covered in detail where I was going with all my questions. (Todd I almost put a plug in for your sander as well ;)) As many stated super light passes and a tight paper is the key. And Todd covered the proper grits as well. Proper setup is the key (as is with any machine). I really am satisfied with my 16-32 for now though I'm constantly on the hunt for a bargain on a wide belt sander. ;) Hope it all works out well for you.
Author:  Ricardo [ Wed May 27, 2009 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Thanks for all the suggestions folks! Just two questions: does turning the infeed/outfeed pressure adjusters clockwise increase or decrease snipe? I guess I could try it on some scrap - its that these little screws are hard to get to, and the manual says to adjust the level of the sanding drum turn the knob clockwise to lower the outboard end - in fact I find turning the knob clockwise raises the outboard end of the sanding drum. Anyway I perservered and got my top sanded down satisfactorily. I guess we can all agree that this is a finicky machine, but gets the job done.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Wed May 27, 2009 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Having never messed with the rollers, I can't comment on that. As for raising/lowering the outboard end of the drum, the way my manual says to do it is the opposite of the way it actually works. Sounds like they still haven't corrected the manual.

I don't think you'll find the machine particularly finicky once you get it set up right and get used to using it.

As for the feed belt, mine tracks to the right, like Hesh's, no matter what I do, but it is not a problem. In my experience, this is due to the individual belt. The belt that came with my machine tracks to the left no matter what I would do. Oddly enough, even reversing the belt doesn't make a difference; the replacement belt I got (the one I'm currently using) tracks to the right no matter which direction I run it, and the belt that tracks to the left does the same thing. Go figure.
Author:  Ricardo [ Wed May 27, 2009 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Todd, I'm constantly adjusting tracking. Did you see Lillian's post in another thread where she said that after bolting down her sander she has had no tracking problems since? Mine's not bolted down. I would not have thought that there would be that much flexing of the frame to cause this problem.
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Wed May 27, 2009 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Ricardo wrote:
Did you see Lillian's post in another thread where she said that after bolting down her sander she has had no tracking problems since? Mine's not bolted down. I would not have thought that there would be that much flexing of the frame to cause this problem.


I haven't see Lillian's post yet but that may explain why I've never had tracking problems if that's the case. I bought the stand and bolted it on from day one.
Author:  Pat Foster [ Wed May 27, 2009 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Bill Hodge wrote:
Ricardo wrote:
Did you see Lillian's post in another thread where she said that after bolting down her sander she has had no tracking problems since? Mine's not bolted down. I would not have thought that there would be that much flexing of the frame to cause this problem.


I haven't see Lillian's post yet but that may explain why I've never had tracking problems if that's the case. I bought the stand and bolted it on from day one.


Same with my 10-20, and no problems. The guy I bought it from didn't have it bolted to a base, and the edges of the belt are frayed, evidence that it had run off-center some time in the past. Before I used it I made a base and bolted it down, never touched the belt and it runs true. Dumb luck, I suppose.

Pat
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed May 27, 2009 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
I just bought mine and have had no problems yet. I haven't even gone through a setup, just used it. One of the few tools I have that seem to have been ready to go right out of the box. I have it on a roll-around cabinet but not bolted down. I'll go ahead and bolt it down based on the comments I've heard here.
Author:  Lillian F-W [ Wed May 27, 2009 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
The other post Richardo is referring to was taken from a lengthy review of a 10/20. The reviewer was having issues with the tracking and could not get it to work. His machinist friend noticed that it slightly racked and solved it by unbolting it from the stand and systematically re-tighten the bolts. He said that he would not have noticed it if his friend had not of pointed it out, it was that slight.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Thu May 28, 2009 5:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who Has a Performax 10-20?
Mine is bolted to a stand. Maybe the way it's bolted down is the issue. Since you have to unbolt and re-bolt the outboard end of the platten from the stand in order to change the belt, that could explain what I've experienced in changing feed belts, which I attributed to the belt itself. Interesting.

Anyway, the tracking doesn't necessarily cause a problem. When I carefully adjust the tension so that it's just enough and no more, with the two ends of the roller adjusted somewhat (one a bit tighter, one a bit looser) to resist the tendency of the belt to go to the side it wants to go to, it still goes to that side but stops at the point where it contacts the magnetic tracker thingie underneath the platten, so it rides along just fine without buckling or anything. As Hesh notes, having it ride to the right may even help reduce the ridging that happens when you run a wide piece through twice (another thing that will certainly help reduce that is making sure the abrasive wrap is really tight on the drum, especially at the ends).
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/