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| Which lacquer and why? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=22505 |
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| Author: | jncllc [ Tue May 26, 2009 10:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Which lacquer and why? |
What brand of lacquer do you use and why do you like it? |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Tue May 26, 2009 11:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
I use Behlen stringed instrument lacquer, it has the same qualities as McFaddens and for me is more available, Woodcraft stores carry it in stock. Fred |
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| Author: | Cal Maier [ Tue May 26, 2009 11:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
Mohawk Classic Instrument Lacquer, Mostly because it's available locally, and I'm sure it's the same as the Behlen and not too different than the McFadden. It also comes premixed, but I like to thin the final top coats by about 20% or so to improve the flow and eliminate any mild orange peel. Cal |
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| Author: | woody b [ Tue May 26, 2009 3:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
I use Mohawk, but I (think I) read that Behlens is made by Mohawk. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue May 26, 2009 3:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
The key to each reply has been that the lacquer ( nitrocellulose ) is all instrument grade. Yes you can buy lacquer at Lowe's and Home Depot but brands like DEFT and MINWAX are not designed as instrument grade. You have a heavier solids content in the instrument grade and there are no additives like there are in furniture. Most of use will will HVLP equipment but hobbiests may be using the spray cans. If this is the case Stew Mac LMI and Grizzly all carry instrument grade aerosols. Just remember it isn't what you put on but what you let on. Also your finish is only as good as your prep. If you take short cuts don't expect professional results. It takes me about 6 to 8 weeks to cycle a finish. You will spend weeks to allow proper cure time before you start sanding. Take your time , as it is this final step that makes the guitar look good . If you want to make and sell you must think EYE APPEAL IS BUY APPEAL |
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| Author: | Mike_P [ Tue May 26, 2009 4:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
hey John, I think your logic is backwards... from what I've seen, the instrument grade lacquers have a lower solids content than furniture grade lacquers... for instance the Behlen instrument lacquer is 18% solids by weight, and their Qualalacq product is 24%... the solids, from what I know, make the product build up quicker but at the same time should result in a loss of 'clearness' in the product...I'm not sure if there is a resultant loss in 'sound', but considering that all of the instrument lacquer's I've looked at had lower solids content than 'normal' lacquers I suspect there is some reason...perhaps its just the 'clearness' issue, and perhaps not... |
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| Author: | guitarjtb [ Tue May 26, 2009 5:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
I have used McFadden and Mohawk. Both are very good. RPM is the parent company of a lot of the lacquer brands. Mohawk changed formulas on me once, and I got some checking in the finish. I am trying to get away from lacquer. I can't tolerate the fumes and the gasing off any longer. I am experimenting with varnish, and am also considering out sourcing the finish work. Bottom line is, I won't be spraying lacquer. Run now, while you still have a chance. 
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| Author: | Darryl Young [ Tue May 26, 2009 6:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
James, what varnish are you considering? The KTM-SV is interesting. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue May 26, 2009 6:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
I double checked with Behlen and it is high solid content for instrument grade . Check it out on their website |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue May 26, 2009 7:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
I sent an email as the High solids may not mean what it sounds like. That way we have the poop and the info will be correct. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Wed May 27, 2009 8:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
There is a difference , in the instrument grade lacquer , I was wrong , the solid content of INSTRUMENT is 18% and the furniture grade is 24%. Thanks Mr Paine we now have accurate info and I stand corrected. It is great to learn something new. |
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| Author: | Judge W [ Wed May 27, 2009 11:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
What laquer to laquer thinner ratios are you using for flash coats and build coats and top coats? (I'm using Behlens "pre mix" too as I can pick it up at woodcraft). |
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| Author: | Mike_P [ Wed May 27, 2009 1:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
if by flash coat you mean a sealer coat you need to use their vinyl sealer for that...I operate by the rule that sealers should penetrate into the wood as much as possible so I sometimes thin that out a bit more than I would the top coats...of course with any thinning you are running the risk of drips and sags... ideally you want to spray the product on as thick as possible because solvents are nasty chemicals...also I've found it increasingly difficult to get high quality thinners lately and I suspect its because most of the people who are using lacquers are after the cheapest stuff possible, hence suppliers are no longer carrying quality reducers... yep, it says pre-mixed and ready to spray out of the can, but what matters on an individual level is the exact viscosity of the mix and how that pertains to your specific system...viscosity of the same exact mix can change with temperature...a zahn cup is a good way to know exactly what your preferred mix is at any given moment in time. to backstep..first coat should be a vinyl sealer, and make sure that if at any time you choose to use a catalyzed system that the sealer is also catalyzed...air dry and catalyzed do NOT go together, issues such as cracking a crazing will occur at some point... the sealer is just that, a sealer..it should be used sparingly, maximum of 2 coats (unless by chance you are using it as a secondary grain filler and sanding the hell out of it and leaving a thin Dry Film Thickness)...its a completely different animal than the top coat material and is not meant to be built up. with top coats (the instrument lacquer in this case) one can tend to thin out the last coats a bit more to promote bonding with all of the previous coats and to help it all flow out a bit better...if possible locate a source that offers varying grades of thinners, and by that I mean slow, medium and fast drying...fast should be used when its cold and slow when its hot (ambient temperature wise)...though I find no exact information I would suspect the Behlen thinner is a medium drying thinner and generally appropriate for most all conditions... be aware that the more thinner one uses the longer the time necessary between coats to allow those solvents to flash off..ignoring this concept can result in either tiny craters in the surface or tiny bubbles embedded in the finish! one subject that perhaps needs to be brought up is that of retarder...I see that Behlen states that it should be used if the humidity is above 50%...that is a very general and SAFE rule...I follow the rule that the RH should be 15 points lower than the temperature...I've shot lacquers with no issues with humidity as high as 68%...what is retarder you ask? its a chemical that slows the curing time of lacquer and is properly used to prevent blushing (which is caused by moisture being trapped in the finish)...it is often improperly used to let the lacquer flow out better, a slower drying thinner should be used if that is desired...I run from retarder whenever possible as I've had a couple of bad experiences with it and how it affected the time it took for the lacquer to reach full hardness...if used, it should be used very, very sparingly... |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Wed May 27, 2009 3:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
I use the Behlens as it comes from the can with a HVLP gun with a .8 tip and have not had any spraying issues. I used their vinyl sealer as a sealer coat on the first 4 guitars and used shellac as sealer on the last because of filling with Z-poxy, and I will use shellac from now on. I spray in 3 sets of 4 coats each with leveling and a little drop filling between sets. I have even sprayed the Behlens with my air brush on repair touch ups and it is thin enough even for that. I have not checked the viscosity but it sprays the same from can to can. Fred |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Wed May 27, 2009 3:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
I am using the vinyl sealer but do use shellac when I don't have any. This is becoming a very informative thread. What are you guy s using for a cure time? I have found 3 weeks to be a good amount of time and had cleaned up my sinking issues with lacquer |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Wed May 27, 2009 7:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
I use shellac for sealing or seedlac. I like how it tones the top. This last guitar I applied like Robbie's FP method and topped it with Nitro. |
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| Author: | ChuckB [ Wed May 27, 2009 9:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
I like to fill with zpoxy as needed, seal with shellac, then 6 coats of nitro with 400 grit sand between all coats except last 2. Then allow to cure for 4 weeks before final sanding and polishing/buffing . Chuck |
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| Author: | Daniel Minard [ Wed May 27, 2009 11:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
I use Mohawk (when I have a customer who wants a more "traditional" finish than polyurethane or polyester) Classic Instrument Lacquer with Mohawk Vinyl Sealer. I use Walmart or any other cheap lacquer thinners for cleanup, but only "virgin" thinners from Mohawk for reducing the lacquer. I finished my first four instruments (back in the eighties) with a high quality furniture lacquer. In all cases, the finish started to craze after less than a decade. I am actually re-finishing one of those old guitars right now & I was amazed at how badly crazed the finish was. Once bitten... I'll stick with the "real thing" from now on, I think. Mohawk, Behlen's or Mcfadden's |
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| Author: | woody b [ Thu May 28, 2009 5:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
bluescreek wrote: I am using the vinyl sealer but do use shellac when I don't have any. This is becoming a very informative thread. What are you guy s using for a cure time? I have found 3 weeks to be a good amount of time and had cleaned up my sinking issues with lacquer 3 weeks works for me. I seal with shellac. I've never used vinyl sealer so I have no opinion about it. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Thu May 28, 2009 7:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
There is no 'instrument grade' lacquer available over here that I'm aware of, so I believe most builders in Europe use what they can get locally. In my case that is Saphir Polerlack, a Swedish nitro cellulose lacquer. I have to import it from Sweden through their sales office in another town here in Norway, so it is still somewhat of a PIA. Some Italian makers I know use Sayerlack, the Germans and Spanish and so on probably have their own brands, too. My oldest instrument finished with Saphir is about 10 years old and the finish is holding up fine, no sign of crazing or anything like that (I didn't say it was a fine instrument...). Perhaps I've been lucky, or our generic nitro lacquers are different than the ones available in the US, but my experience does not match those I'm seeing in this thread. That said, I'm also experimenting with different finish alternatives for my instruments. For one thing, the fumes are pretty nasty, and over time nito will deteriorate. I'm looking into both oil and spirit varnishes, one promising product is Epifanes varnish. None of the alternatives I've tried are as easy to work with (availability and toxicity aside) as nitro, though. |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Thu May 28, 2009 12:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
Arnt Rian wrote: I'm looking into both oil and spirit varnishes, one promising product is Epifanes varnish. Epifanes is AWESOME. I use on the canoes. best varnish that I've ever used. |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Thu May 28, 2009 1:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
Arnt Rian wrote: I'm looking into both oil and spirit varnishes, one promising product is Epifanes varnish. Epifanes is AWESOME. I use it on the canoes that I build. Best varnish that I've ever used. |
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| Author: | Mike_P [ Thu May 28, 2009 1:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
the purpose of a sealer is multi-fold...part of it is to of course seal the wood...many times the grain gets raised which requires sanding and hence sealers of the lacquer variety can have zinc stearate added to make sanding easier. sealers should also provide the ability to bond to the wood and be able to have the top coat properly bond to it...from what I've been able to gather a top coat lacquer many times doesn't make a very good bond to bare wood and hence the necessity to use a proper sealer that is compatible with the system... I was just reading on another forum where a person had made the 'mistake' of using lacquer thinner to reduce shellac....apparently there were no adverse effects as it dried..this implies to me that lacquer itself will make a good bond with shellac and probably burn into it, which would be desired for a quality finish. to me a quality finish system is determined by a hammer! I frequently take a cut off, finish it, and when dried hit it with a hammer and observe the results...what I'm looking for is the finish flowing into the dent as it were and not shattering and flaking off...if any flaking is observed it had better be from the lacquer itself being 'too thick' and not from a bad bond to the wood..I've done a lot of commercial millwork installation where the materials are pre-finished off site...my definition of a very bad finish is when you cut the materials to size on site and the finish flakes off! Obviously the finisher did something seriously wrong IMHO... |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Fri May 29, 2009 6:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
I do know a few builders that do use a series of thinned coats to seal . They use a 60 thinner 40 lacquer mix for 3 coats , then 1/2 and 1/2 for 3 coats , and then 75% lacquer then use a 5 to 10 % thinned finish coat. I do thin the first few coats , but once I feel I have a good start i just add the lacquer into the sprayer till I get a .016 to .020 build . This I let set 3 weeks then level sand. I think , like most beginners it was this allowing a good cure time that messed me up more than my spray technique. Once I learned the patience of this my finishes went into the next level. I do use an HVLP system . |
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| Author: | MRS [ Fri May 29, 2009 5:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which lacquer and why? |
I believe the lower solid content in musical instrument grade laquers aids in rubbing out to a mirror like finish. i remember a time when the Behlen rockhard varnish was very popular for musical instrument makers. Anyone here use this now or in the past? |
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