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how long does it take
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Author:  dylanger [ Tue May 19, 2009 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  how long does it take
As a full time luthier, how long does it take you to build your specialized instrument. How many instruments do you sell a year.
Author:  John Mayes [ Tue May 19, 2009 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
It takes me about 40 hours, and I build about 25 acoustics a year, plus another dozen or two electrics, and a handful of ukes too.
Author:  Daniel Minard [ Tue May 19, 2009 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
John;
Are you including the finish in that 40 hour total???
Author:  John Mayes [ Tue May 19, 2009 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
Daniel Minard wrote:
John;
Are you including the finish in that 40 hour total???


I subcontract my finish out. So no.
Author:  Ken Jones [ Wed May 20, 2009 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
wow7-eyes

Wow, that's pretty much incomprehensible to me! Especially as gorgeous as your instruments are, John. If I could make a fairly straightforward guitar in less than 150 hours I'd feel like I was doing pretty well. ;)

Actually, I do want to try that. One of my next builds, now that most my major jigs are made, will be to do a "basic" guitar with standard appointments, and will be strictly timed. I'm really just curious more than anything -- about the time investment, as well as the quality I can achieve without obsessing on every aspect as much as I usually do. Not to say I'm interested in cutting corners, but I probably fixate on some things unnecessarily.
Author:  muthrs [ Wed May 20, 2009 5:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
Forty to fifty hours is about right depending on features. The whole finishing process from pore filling to final buff out probably takes me another 15 hours.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Wed May 20, 2009 6:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
Are you all counting resawing your sides and backssets or are you talkng buying sets. And are you buying bridge blanks and pre cut Rosettes and inlay binding and linings or just how much is bought parts etc.? And how sanded is the guitar when you send it out and what kind of finish are you putting on the guitar? Are you including all the clean up and running for material when you say 15 hours. That seems short to me.
Author:  muthrs [ Wed May 20, 2009 6:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
I do both, resaw and buy sets. I'm not necessarily counting resawing. I make my own bridges and rosettes, as well as purfling and some binding. I mostly buy linings. I don't send my guitar out for finish so this includes final sanding. Fifteen hours includes the entire finishing process, but not fretting, set-up time, etc. There is a lot of work to be done after finishing. This time is included however in the 40-50 hours. Not sure what you mean by running for material, but all the other business aspects (ordering, bills, dealing with customers, marketing, etc.) of building guitars is not included in this time.

Here's a rough breakdown on finishing for me.
Mask - 30 min
Pore fill - 15-20 min
Sand - 60 min
Pore fill - 15-20 min
Sand - 60 min
Sealer (2 coats) - 30 min
Spray (10 coats) - 10 min/ coat + 30 min setup and cleanup
Sand after 1st set of coats - 60 min
Demask - 15 min
Sand and bring up through grits for buffing - 180 min
Buffing - 60 min

I think that cover everything and adds up to 11 hours, so 15 hours is a very reasonable estimate.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Wed May 20, 2009 6:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
Thanks for the break down Randy.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Wed May 20, 2009 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
On the other hand... it takes me about a year mainly building on weekends to crank one out. I tend to reinvent the wheel every time.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Wed May 20, 2009 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
Or build more jigs! :D
Author:  jordan aceto [ Wed May 20, 2009 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
I build, with one other person, twelve to fifteen instruments a year(mostly violins, which come together faster than guitars), along with three or four major restorations, five or six new tops for an importer of classical guitars who seems to have bad luck with shipping damage, and endless pickup installations and short term repairs, and a hundred or so violin pickups. It takes us... all year, that is the only accounting of time that i have managed to be sure of amongst the frenzy!
Author:  Alain Desforges [ Wed May 20, 2009 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
Better jigs will help. Being more assertive and acting will help a lot more. On my first few, I would look, think, calculate, second-guess myself... reassure myself, think some more, worry, obssess...

My first bridge must have taken me about 6-7 hours to complete, now it takes me less than one. My first fingerboard took me forever to cut the fret kerfs, taper and crown. Now that I'm set up à la Sylvan Wells, it takes me about 15 minutes...

Don't worry about the time, just enjoy the process and you'll gain speed along with experience.
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Wed May 20, 2009 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
Alain Desforges wrote:
Better jigs will help. Being more assertive and acting will help a lot more. On my first few, I would look, think, calculate, second-guess myself... reassure myself, think some more, worry, obssess...


Well put Alain....... single biggest time consumer when you start out. "What if I screw up!!!!....better spend a couple more hours on the internet to make sure I know what I'm doing!" (..suspect everyone goes through it to some degree)
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Wed May 20, 2009 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
I know of at least two high-end builders who are even faster than Mayes, and they do their own finish! They are both older, though, so I think John'll have 'em beat well before he's grey :)

Certainty in working (and batching) adds tremendously to speed. The factory people do it in under ten hours of labour, and it's partly because of good jigs but mostly because everyone there is -really- quick at their job.
Author:  woody b [ Wed May 20, 2009 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
Bob Garrish wrote:
I know of at least two high-end builders who are even faster than Mayes, and they do their own finish! They are both older, though, so I think John'll have 'em beat well before he's grey :)

Certainty in working (and batching) adds tremendously to speed. The factory people do it in under ten hours of labour, and it's partly because of good jigs but mostly because everyone there is -really- quick at their job.


The reason I build is to get away from all the jigs and batching. I've seen a bunch of people get caught up in making guitars quicker and lose the personal touch. I have a good paying full time job so how long it takes me to make a guitar isn't a concern as long as the finished product is good. I estimate 80 hours including finishing for me, but again, I'm no pro. There's alot of areas where I could be quicker, but again that's not how I choose to do things.
Author:  muthrs [ Wed May 20, 2009 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
Of course, CNC and robots help the factory too.

I understand about the personal touch. Everyone makes their own choices. I batch a lot of the early machining work to cut down on set-up time and then build each one individually. I include standard on my guitars a lot of features such as a Spanish V-joint, a mortised Spanish foot, some CF laminated braces, make my own purfling, etc. This does add some time to the build.
Author:  dylanger [ Wed May 20, 2009 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
thanks a lot guys for the help, very much appreciated.
Author:  Parser [ Wed May 20, 2009 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
I've heard 13 hrs for a basic martin. Under 10 is pretty impressive...I'm guessing that's Taylor with their UV finishes, etc..?
Author:  dylanger [ Thu May 21, 2009 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
Wow thats rediculous. Is that done all by hand.
Author:  muthrs [ Thu May 21, 2009 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
No it's not all done by hand at all. There are CNC machines carving the neck and cutting out all of the parts (top, sides, back, braces, nut, saddle, bridge, etc). Taylor has robots spraying the guitars. The parts are assembled as is, with little or no tuning. Each person works at a station, day after day, year after year. So one guy will nothing but install rosettes, after the CNC has routed the cavity. I bet he's good at it. Another guy will man several bending machines at once, just moving sides through.

I imagine that a good chunk of the hands on time is for set-up, which can't be readily automated. Although with all the precision milling and Taylor's new neck system, I bet there is very little fussing during set-up.

Go to Taylor's website and look for the factory Fridays' videos. I haven' gone there in awhile, but they should still be online. Bob Taylor's real expertise is in process design, and he's very good at it.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Thu May 21, 2009 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
I know of a guitar factory that has 8.5 hours of labour in a guitar. They use a UV finish (manually sprayed), but they do cure it in a curing booth. They bring in their bridges and fingerboards, they laser cut their tops and backs, and they CNC their necks. The rest is all done on standard fixtures (ie: they use fox benders, vacuum clamps for bridges, router fixtures and vacuum presses for bracing, buff and spray by hand, etc).

I know guys who can make a neck in one hour
You can cure a UV finish in fifteen minutes by hand
You can make a fingerboard, with jigs, in at most 45 minutes
You can cut a top, back, and rosette channel with a jig in less than an hour
You can easily make a bridge in 1/2 hour with a good jig

So, without any automation they could be doing it in 12 hours.
Author:  Kelby [ Thu May 21, 2009 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
I've learned to take these numbers with a grain of salt. (No offense to anyone who has posted numbers.)

I once attended a presentation by a well-respected builder who was very proud of the fact that, with the help of technology, he can turn out a guitar in about 40 hours, including the finish. At a different point in the presentation, he lamented the fact that he works 6 days a week, 12-14 hours per day, and hasn't had a vacation in years. Later, he impressed us all by declaring that he builds 40-50 guitars per year.

Fellas, that math don't add up.

40 hours/guitar times 40-50 guitars per year = 1600-2000 hours per year.

But on the other hand . . .

6 days/week times 12-14 hours/day times 52 weeks/year = 3744-4368 hours/year.

Now, I don't believe the guy was lying or anything like that. What I do believe is that people's numbers get heavily distorted by two facts:

FACT NO. 1: People sometimes omit a lot of things when they calculate how much time it really takes to "build" a guitar. Things like:

(1) Designing the guitar. (We are talking about "custom" guitars, after all.)
(2) Shopping for and ordering materials.
(3) Running to Home Depot for sandpaper, Titebond, etc.
(4) Pulling jigs from the rafters and setting them up. (Most of us don't have the luxury of a 1/2 acre shop in which we can leave everything set up.)
(5) Replacing bandsaw blades.
(6) Fixing mistakes.
(7) Sweeping the floor, emptying your dust collector, and the general clean-up you do at the end of each day.
(8) Sharpening chisels, plane blades, etc.

This list could go on for pages and pages. But the bottom line is that building a guitar involves a lot more than physically shaping the neck, carving braces, etc. Depending on how you count that time, you could come up with almost any "hours per guitar" figure you want.

FACT NO. 2: There are many different levels of "building" a guitar.

I'm a guy that literally starts with a pile of lumber (except the tops, which I buy). I resaw my own back and sides, cut my own bridge blanks, manufacture my own fingerboards, rosettes, binding, and just about everything else. Folks that do this for a living are more likely to buy many of these things pre-made. Someone who is more of a purist than me might make their own truss rods, tuning machine knobs, and bridge pins. All are legitimate approaches, and all radically impact the amount of time it takes to build an instrument. It would probably be difficult to find two people who have the same starting point, so it is difficult to compare two people's numbers.
Author:  walnut47 [ Thu May 21, 2009 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
Kelby,
Your point is right on with what I have observed with a lot of self-employed craftsmen. Not that any of you guys who have posted would do this, but I have known or worked with quite a few carpenters, cabinetmakers and remodelers over the years. Almost without exception they grossly underestimate how long it takes to get a job done. I've certainly been guilty of this myself. My guess is that we may have a little reluctance to really know how little we're making per hour gaah
Walter
Author:  muthrs [ Thu May 21, 2009 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: how long does it take
Kelby,

The question that was asked was how long does it take to build a guitar, and I think several people gave some pretty honest answers. Anyone in this business knows that there is a LOT of time spent running the business that doesn't involve actual building. There are repairs, sharpening and tune-ups to do, ordering, book keeping, paying bills, shows to do, websites to manage, spending a lot of time with customers, posting in forums, and on and on. If the well-respected luthier you quoted is making 40-50 guitars a year, he certainly has the "process" down to a 40 hour guitar. At 50 guitars a year, he is putting in a 40 hour week just doing that. Add in all the other aspects of running a business and he has no time at all. Building guitars and running a business doing so are two different things.
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