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Nylon Crossover bridge design
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=22416		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Tue May 19, 2009 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Nylon Crossover bridge design
My next endeavor is making a OO nylon crossover. I was thinking of not making the traditional tie block classical bridge.
I do have some pinless bridges for my steel strings and was wondering if it would work just to use one of them.
The idea is to tie a knot at the end of the string and pass it through the pinless slot. The knot would function like the ball end of the string

Do you think this would work???

Below is an example of one of my bridges
Image
Author:  TonyKarol [ Tue May 19, 2009 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
The idea sounds like it will .. why not try it.

The only downfall I can see is that over time the tension will pull the knot tightly into the hole, possibly forcing the player/owner to have to resort to mechanical means (ouch) to get the darn thing out. the knot likely wont be as large as the ball end of a SS ....
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Tue May 19, 2009 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
I tried that once, and the unwound treble strings pulled right out of the knot. However, one work-around to that is to heat the end of the treble strings with a match so that it melts and forms a small ball. This should stop the unraveling knot.

Also, keep the hole or slot that the string goes through as small as possible so the single string just clears. Having to make an extra large knot to make up for a loose fitting slot will allow the knot to deform under pressure and slip through.
Author:  qwrtz [ Tue May 19, 2009 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
Why not just use ball-end nylon strings?
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Tue May 19, 2009 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
Thanks for the info
I didn't know that ball end nylons existed. I have very little experience with nylons.

In looking at my pinless, would it just work to use it like a tie block???????
Just pull the strings through and tie around the ebony like a tie block or would the ebony not be strong enough?????
Author:  Dave White [ Tue May 19, 2009 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
Andy,

You could always use the ukulele type bridge where the string goes through a hole in the bridge into the box, you pull up the string through the soundhole and attach a bead on the end of the string. This then seats against the bridge-plate. It's a little more fiddly to change strings but gives you great scope for bridge design - no bulky string block needed behind the saddle. Here's one on the taropatch harp ukulele that I made recently (the sub-basses used classical guitar nylon strings):

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Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue May 19, 2009 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
I think the Ebony would be strong enough, but I'm not seeing where you are going to tie it. The treble, particularly the E, strings are fussy about staying tied, and a ball melted on the end is a good idea. I don't know if the melted ball would be strong enough to keep the string from breaking where the ball is melted on. Usually, you only depend on the ball to stop the knot from slipping. Generally the tie-block on a classical is 6 - 10mm high and 10 - 12 mm thick and bored with 6, 12, or 18 holes depending on preference. It's hard to tell from the angle of the picture of your bridge what would act as the tie-block. However, you could use beads as the ball, and tie a knot, using a figure-eight type knot that shouldn't slip, on the smaller strings. The only ball end nylons I know are the Martin Folk strings. Maybe there are others.

Dave's post was more helpful. He was posting while I was typing.
Author:  Steve Saville [ Tue May 19, 2009 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
Andy,
I believe your idea would work. I have not made a classical guitar, but I have owned/played one for many years. You should be able to tie off the string on your bridge.
One thing to mention - I believe your bridge is a little on the large/heavy side for classical.
Author:  wbergman [ Tue May 19, 2009 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
I have seen little beads with multiple holes marketed specificaly to tie to the ends of classical strings. The link below discusses this a little.
Bead ends work fine in a conventional classical bridge.

http://www.guitarsalon.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=10809
Author:  Mike Collins [ Tue May 19, 2009 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
Andy;
your idea should work fine.
Either way!
Just remember that you need a good breakover angle on the saddle.
Nylon strings need this more than steel strings.

Mike

[:Y:]
Author:  qwrtz [ Tue May 19, 2009 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
Ball-end nylon strings:
http://www.stringsandbeyond.com/deanmarbalen.html
http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--MRTM120
http://www.zzounds.com/item--MRTM120
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Tue May 19, 2009 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
Thanks for the info. I have more questions so I will put them in another thread
Author:  Philip Perdue [ Tue May 19, 2009 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
Andy,

My vote is with the pass thru bridge like Dave White posted. This style of string attatchment is very popular with us ukulele builders. I really like the clean lines it produces. With a guitar you can just reach in and grab the strings to add the bead. With the ukuleles we use a piece of wire with a loop to reach through the smaller sound hole. I had a couple of photos I was going to post but Dave's are very good. Here is one more for a different angle.
Image

Philip
Author:  Jim Watts [ Tue May 19, 2009 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
Andy, Have you looked at Taylors' nylon series bridge? They use plain ebony as a tie block.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue May 19, 2009 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
I think the reason for not using ebony on most nylon strung guitars is not the strength of the wood, but the additional damping that will reduce the output of the nylon strings.
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Tue May 19, 2009 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
Here is an example of my bridge where I tied some nylon strings through to see how the would sit.
I don't think it looks that bad. I could also use ball end nylons as suggested

Image
Author:  qwrtz [ Tue May 19, 2009 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
Classical guitar bridges usually extend farther across the soundboard. Using that bridge might affect the tone.

I once trimmed the ends off a bridge after gluing it on, and it changed the sound of the guitar a lot. Added an unpleasant clunk.
Author:  RaymundH [ Wed May 20, 2009 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
Andy,

I am right in the middle of a Padauk/Engleman Nylon Crossover ( Mustapick style) and must say that these are very interesting builds. I stuck with a standard classical bridge adjusting the string spacing to accomodate the 1 7/8" nut.

I noticed that my playing instructor (classical player) is constantly changing sting manufacturers in search of the right feel and sound. If you went to ball end nylons you may be stuck with limited string options.
Also, I feel that aestheticaly classical bridges just "look right" in this type of build. (just personal opinion)

Ray
Author:  douglas ingram [ Wed May 20, 2009 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nylon Crossover bridge design
Once upon a time, before Torres, the early romantic guitars used a pin bridge with the gut strings. It would work with the Nylon, too. The issue that imposes itself is that it is critical that the string holes NOT cut through the braces. Location is critical, so plan carefully. That is why tie block became the standard, especially when using bracing more complex than ladder bracing.

Why are you interested in using non tie block bridges? The only reason that I would question is that tying the strings is too much hassle.
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