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Jeff Weiss Emtech 6000 Study Data
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=22392		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Sat May 16, 2009 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Jeff Weiss Emtech 6000 Study Data
I was following this thread closely as I intend to use this product (I've purchased it). Thought others on the forum would be interested in the work Jeff's doing over at Target Coatings. Good stuff.

http://www.targetcoatings.com/forum/vie ... php?t=1374

Chris
Author:  Heath Blair [ Sun May 17, 2009 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jeff Weiss Emtech 6000 Study Data
thanks for posting that chris.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Sun May 17, 2009 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jeff Weiss Emtech 6000 Study Data
I must be asking the wrong questions over there, because I rarely get a reply. I seriously want to know if their high solids grain filler is useful. I just posted that again... we will see.

Mike
Author:  Philip Perdue [ Mon May 18, 2009 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jeff Weiss Emtech 6000 Study Data
Mike,

I have been experimenting with EM 6000. So far I have been satisfied with it but have not used it on an instrument yet but plan to do so. During my testing I have tried to use the high solids grain filler but I’m not too excited by it. The first time I tried the filler I used the same method of application as I would with epoxy as filler. The filler was spread and mashed down into the pores and then wiped off with the edge of the card. The next day after the first application it was almost as if nothing had been put on the wood. Second try was the same. For the third application I put a very heavy coat on and the pores are still not filled. I will not use it as filler on any of my instrument it just doesn’t work for me.
I do have some test pieces with EM 6000 that have cured over for a couple of weeks. They seem to be pretty tough with no imprints from fingernail pressure. No polishing has been done but I have leveled using micro mesh and it brought it up to a pretty nice shine. I will be using the EM 6000 on 3 ukuleles and a guitar as soon as I finish them up. The pore filler will be epoxy with shellac as a sealer.

I admit that I’m not the most experienced in this area so keep that in mind.

Philip
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon May 18, 2009 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jeff Weiss Emtech 6000 Study Data
Philip,

Thanks. That is exactly what I was looking for. Real world experience with the high solids stuff (EmTech).

They make it sound like a thick goo with "troweling it on" statements. But, I suspected it was going to be useless as a pore filler.

Guess we are still stuck with epoxy.

Mike
Author:  Loren Schulte [ Mon May 18, 2009 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jeff Weiss Emtech 6000 Study Data
"..Guess we are still stuck with epoxy."

Not really...the old traditional silica wood filler that McFadden and Behlen (and probably many others) make still works just fine!
Author:  Bill Greene [ Tue May 19, 2009 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jeff Weiss Emtech 6000 Study Data
I like epoxy...works like a dream for me.
Author:  woody b [ Tue May 19, 2009 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jeff Weiss Emtech 6000 Study Data
Unfortunately there's no "magic" pore filler. They all require work and patience.
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Tue May 19, 2009 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jeff Weiss Emtech 6000 Study Data
The Target Coatings high solids pore filler will work - eventually. I find it takes six to eight coats on EI rosewood. So while it takes more than twice as many applications as epoxy, it also dries more than twice as fast so total time is about the same for the two methods i.e you can get the pores filled over the course of a couple of days. One characteristic that you may consider an advantage (depending on the final look you want) is that it doesn't darken the wood like epoxy. So I would tend to use it when I am starting off with wood that is already relatively dark and I don't want to go any darker.

Pat
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue May 19, 2009 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jeff Weiss Emtech 6000 Study Data
Pat Hawley wrote:
The Target Coatings high solids pore filler will work - eventually. I find it takes six to eight coats on EI rosewood. So while it takes more than twice as many applications as epoxy, it also dries more than twice as fast so total time is about the same for the two methods i.e you can get the pores filled over the course of a couple of days. One characteristic that you may consider an advantage (depending on the final look you want) is that it doesn't darken the wood like epoxy. So I would tend to use it when I am starting off with wood that is already relatively dark and I don't want to go any darker.

Pat


Pat, All very good points. How do you apply it? Spray? Brush? Trowel?
Author:  David R White [ Tue May 19, 2009 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jeff Weiss Emtech 6000 Study Data
I'm also trying the Target pore filler for the first time. I'm still testing a process but I think it works fine. I would have preferred to do some more experimenting with it before posting but since we're discussing it now I'll post my first impressions. I applied with a brush, waited 2 minutes, and scraped off the excess with a piece of plastic at 45degrees.

I don't think it fills as quickly as epoxy and will probably take more coats, however overall I think it will be faster. I think it has these advantages over epoxy:

1) It dries much quicker (they say to sand in two hours).
2) I'm able to get a smoother finish, prior to sanding - with epoxy I often would get a run or two, and leave higher ridges.
3) It sands easier - less work and doesn't load the paper as much.
4) I tried applying a second coat without sanding in between (after waiting two hours) and it seems to work fine (I'm not sure if that's going to be a problem or not.)
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Tue May 19, 2009 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jeff Weiss Emtech 6000 Study Data
Mike,

What Dave just said above except that I spread it on with an old credit card. I also found that I didn't need to sand with every coat. So in many ways, it is easier than epoxy. You just have to be ready to apply many coats. I also like Z-poxy. These are my two pore filling methods of choice these days.

Pat
Author:  Ken C [ Tue May 19, 2009 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jeff Weiss Emtech 6000 Study Data
I used Target's HS pore filler on a mahogany OMC last year with limited success. It required way too many coats and actually shrunk more than I would have liked over the next several months. I've since gone back to Behlens.

I just sprayed two guitars with Emtech 6000. I put down a coat of their 8800 sanding sealer, pore filled, then sprayed one more coat of sanding sealer. I then shot about a dozen coats of Emtech 6000. My experience with the 6000 wasn't as good as with their USL. I was spraying in marginal conditions, 60 degrees with 50-60% humidity, and I kept getting dimples in my finish. Once the weather warmed, I got better results, but I couldn't get the stuff to come off the gun at a high gloss. I rub out anyway, so no big deal, but if I were spraying cabinets or furniture with it, I wouldn't have been happy. USL always came off the gun nice and glossy. I tinkered with the gun setup a fair amount, but no luck.

One other thing I noticed is that the 6000 doesn't seem to burn in as well as the USL. The 6000 requires a light sanding if more than a few hours have passed between coats. Otherwise, sanding through a layer leaves visible marks.

I am just starting to rub out the finish, and the 6000 seems to buff to a nice, high gloss. I should have the SJ buffed out this weekend, so may be able to post pictures soon.

Ken
Author:  muthrs [ Tue May 19, 2009 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jeff Weiss Emtech 6000 Study Data
I haven't used Target products in over a year, but I have extensive experience with pretty much there entire line. I see that they simplified their offerings which is a good thing because some of their products were redundant. It appears to me that EM6000 is basically the same as what was once known as USL. In other words, it's there fully acrylic product. This product has good burn in. The down side is that it is somewhat soft and gives the dreaded blue cast in direct sunlight with dark woods. Al products containing acrylic seem to do this.

IMHO, EM8000 is the better product in that it is a blended finish with urethanes and acrylic. Thus it is harder. It still has the blue cast, although maybe not as severe. Presumably the downside is that it doesn't burn in as well. I used this product for awhile and was able to achieve good burn in by rubbing the area to be repaired with acetone before reapplying. Ultimately, I still found this finish not hard enough and then there was that dreaded blue cast.

The EM2000 appears to be what was called Hybrivar. This is a pure alkyd urethane that does not have the blue cast. Yeah! In fact the product smells like linseed oil and does not have the ammonia smell that acrylic products have. Unfortunately I found this product did not behave that well during application. Again supposedly this product does not burn in, but I was able to achieve good results using the acetone technique, at least when touching up burn throughs within a week or so.

I now am a fan of Grafted Coatings product, KTM-SV, NOT KTM-9 Again this product is a pure alkyd urethane, but is well behaved during application and is harder than anything I have used from Target. It also has exceptional clarity. The downside to both this product and the EM2000 is that they are very sensitive to oils in the wood, mainly rosewoods but also others. These oils act as anti-catalysts and keep the finish from hardening. The solution is to seal the wood very well. I suppose multiple coats of shellac would do it, but I decided to go with a two part urethane sealer. This works without fail, but is nasty stuff. However, not much is required and it can be simply brushed on with a foam rubber brush and it dries and off gases very quickly. It also wets the wood beautifully. I can get in and out of it and then move on to spraying the waterborne. Rolf Gerhardt wrote an article on the use of KTM-SV for his high end mandolins in Guitarmaker Magazine a short while back. He has been experimenting with waterbornes for a long time and our work has often paralleled each others. I would recommend this product to anyone, as long as care is taken to seal the wood.
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