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Intonation & Setup
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=22146		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Intonation & Setup
Are there any really good sources of books and or videos that go into extreme detail regarding intonation and setup? I have Dan Erlewine's DVD on Setup for the Steel String and it is quite underwhelming IMO. I also read what I could find in the forum regarding these matters and really found nothing that covers the kind of detail I would like to know. I have Mike Doolin's article on intonation which is the most detailed I've seen but at it's end, I'm left feeling like I'm hanging from the edge of a cliff after eating a bag of rocks. :?

I would love to acquire the knowledge I need in order to hone my skills of intonation and setup without having to hock my lovely Bride, the horses, and the tractor. :| I'm even willing to take out the trash, sweep floors, and do other menial tasks for any of the Colorado Pros in the Denver to Fort Collins region if that were possible just to learn first hand one on one. Any help that can be offered here I would and do greatly appreciate. :)
Author:  James Orr [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
Bill, the Everett DVD released earlier this month is excellent [:Y:]

http://www.apprenticepublishing.com/adjusting.htm

Sylvan Wells has another great article on it on his website.

http://wellsguitars.com/
Author:  Randolph [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
I'll second the "excellent" on Kent's dvd.
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
Bill,

Do you have a guitar ready to set up now?
Author:  SteveSmith [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
I just got my Everett setup DVD and it really lays it out in a straightforward manner. I would recommend it.

He does not go into detail on intonation but does cover a few useful pointers.
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
Thanks James, Randolph and Steve.

Howdy Robbie,

I've got an SJ that is complete now except for putting the finish on it. It's a bolt on neck and I have the bridge temporarily attached with StewMac type bridge bolts. For some reason, I'm having difficulty getting it intonated correctly. I like to get it as close as possible before putting on the finish and then do final intonation and setup once the finish is on. My low E is registering as an Ab on the electronic tuner and when I tune by ear to where it all sounds good the high E sounds flat. It's been a while since I've done my last setup and I wasn't extremely happy with that one either. I know this is the life blood of any quality instrument and I just want to make sure I master it before I ever try to sell new or charge for repairs and setup. Any help offered I greatly appreciate. :)
Author:  Jim_H [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
I'm currently researching this topic as well. I'll be doing the setup on my first build in a few weeks, so I'm trying to be prepared.

I have Kent's DVD, but haven't watched it yet. I've watched Erlewines DVD's as well.
Author:  truckjohn [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
Basic checking/setting intonation....
Tune the open string to the correct note. Check with a good electronic tuner.
Fret the 12th fret very close to the fret. Check this note with a good electronic tuner.
Plays Sharp at the 12th = move the saddle back (Needs a longer string)
Plays Flat at the 12th = move the saddle closer to the nut (Needs a shorter string)
Retune the open string, repeat.

You can get very close with a temporary tail piece and a loose archtop type saddle, or you could turn a conventional Steelstring bridge around backwards -- just tune, play, and adjust the bridge position.... keep sliding the bridge back and forth a little at a time until you get it right. Mark your Saddle centerline... and use that to position your "Real" bridge.

Example... Tune the open E string right. 12th fret plays ~ 1/8 semitone flat. Move E string saddle a bit closer to the nut. Retune the open E string and try again....

As an example, the bridge 1/8" off on a 25.5" scale gives you an error of about 1/8 semitone at the 12th fret (so like 1/4 of the way between E and F) If you carried this through manually tuning each string off of the last one from the E to the e string
you might be 1/4 - 1/2 semitone off.... (your High e could possibly play as F)

If it is really 4 full semitones off... that means the bridge is quite a bit off... 1/2" to 1" off. I would start by checking the fretboard. (Is it missing the 1st fret?) Carefully measure the fret positions from fret #1 to #12 and back-calculate the real scale length.... then redo the compensation based on the actual scale length for the fretboard you ended up with... not what they "sold" you.

so, for an Acoustic, 25.5" scale... the fretboard should measure 11.319" between #1 and #12.
On a 24.9" scale, it should measure very close to 11.052" between #1 and #12.
But... on a 25.5" scale -- if it is missing the 1st fret.... it will measure 10.684" from the new #1 (old #2) to the new #12 (Old #13)
or almost a whole inch off.....

Stew Mac's fretboard/intonation calculator is usually really close.

My own personal rule on fretboards.... I am an un-trusting sort of fellow. I carefully measure to figure out the actual scale. The guitar is then setup for the actual scale length I receive... not their published numbers. I also check to make sure each fret is where it is supposed to be, and also that they are square to the fretboard centerline. Last fretboard I got -- the fret slots were tapered on a 2* angle. Apparently, their table saw fence was a little crooked when they were cutting.

Good luck with your guitar

John
Author:  Jeff Highland [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
step 1-Frets leveled and crowned and in the right positions
step 2- set neck relief to your preferences with strings to pitch
step 3- cut nut slots to final depth
step 3- adjust saddle height to desired string height
step 4 -check innotation using a good chromatic tuner which shows +-cents.

If steps 1-3 are not done first you will not get the innotation right
If your tuner is innaccurate (showing A flat on the E string?) you will not get it right.
If the tuner just shows lights for flat or sharp you do not have enough information.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
The one thing to add is that i think it is a good idea to check the "in tuneness" of all the fretted notes, not just the 12th. There is often some amount of compromise, guitars don't like to be perfectly in tune at every fret, so i usually try to make the guitar the most in tune in the areas that get the most playing action. Like, for somebody who plays mostly cowboy chords, i would not make the guitar play perfectly in tune at the 12th fret, but have frets 1 through 5 sound funky and out of tune.

It helps to be really fussy about your own guitar, poke at it until you are not bugged by sour notes(an impossibility in my book) and you will learn a lot about what makes intonation tick. Things like peoples tendency to press down harder when they are exited, or pull the high strings towards the treble side are majorly variable from player to player, but have a big impact on how in tune the guitar sounds.

For instance, on my guitar i intonate the bass strings progressively flatter as they go up the neck, because i know that if i am playing that high, i am probably pulling them a little bit towards the treble side of the neck and maybe using heavy vibrato, so the flatly intonated string is pulled in tune by my hammy paws.

Starting out by getting the open string in tune with fret 12 (assuming everything Jeff H. said is in place first)usually gets you very close, and sometimes it is sufficient. The more you try to get perfect at this, the more you will be driven crazy, because fretted instruments just don't like to behave, and the better your ears get, the worse everything sounds!
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
I have to say, this is one of, if not the best post on setup and intonation ever on the OLF (that's pretty bad considering its age etc...). Everything posted here will get you there. The rest is just practice, practice, practice (sort of like everything else in guitar making eh?)

I've learned a lot from reading everything on Bryan Kimsey's website especially the setup section.
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
Thanks to all of you for the input. This is what is so great about OLF is the makeup and camaraderie of all the great folks here. Thanks to all of you who posted the links and offered the various bits of information. Much of what is mentioned I thought I had done but obviously I didn't do it as well as I had thought. idunno

John and Jordan you did an awesome job of translating the difficult to understand lesson by Doolin (difficult for me at least) thereby converting it from a mouth full of rocks to a three course meal. Eat Drink

Rod thanks for the additional link I know it will add to the wealth of info gathered here in this post for sure. [:Y:]

Jeff the check list you provided is what I have done but I apparently didn't do something right. duh This has indeed been as Rod said the best posting (that I've seen at least) in this forum along this subject line and has provided in a short period of time a great deal of valuable information. And, as Rod stated, from here it's "practice, practice, practice". I'm going to have the great benefit of training for a couple of hours on Intonation and Pro-Setup tomorrow (Tuesday) with a well known local area luthier whom I will not name unless given permission to do so. :)

Thanks again to the whole great bunch of you, y'all are the best and I know this will benefit far more than just me. bliss
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
Something I just wanted to be clear on reading back over this post and the replies. I in no way intended for any comment I made to belittle or slight Mike Doolin's article in American Lutherie #92. Looking at some things I said earlier I know it could potentially be misconstrued in that way. I have utmost respect for Mike Doolin and his kindness and willingness to share his wisdom and experience. His article as I had stated before is one of, if not the best and most detailed I've ever seen. My whole point was that the thick skulled Texan that I am was having some difficulty deciphering the music science and theory behind it all. I do much better with physical hands on type of training combined with explanations put into simplified terms that the common lay person such as I can grasp quickly. The participants in this post have done a good job catering to the aid of my denseness. :D If it gets too deep in to the science of it, it's sometimes difficult for me to wrap my brain around. Once I get it though, I've got it firmly. :) Thanks again to you all for the stepping stone that will help me and others to the next level of excellence!
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
Well, I got his permission so I thought I'd tell y'all I spent the afternoon with Robbie O'Brien getting a refresher and learning a few new things on intonation and setup. Looks like I was just making it harder than I needed to and that was all in my cranium. duh Got to meet Mike Snider today as well and he's another class act. He teaches inlay and electric guitar building courses for those of you who may not have known that. It was a great afternoon and a real confidence builder. Robbie is a great guy and very knowledgeable and if any of you ever have an opportunity to train with him, I strongly encourage it. He's very reasonably priced and it's worth far more than you pay. Got some great compliments from Robbie and Mike on #2 today though it's still hard for me to see past the cosmetic flaws. :( It's been sitting in the case nearly a year now awaiting me to get off my duff and dress it up with a finish. This is the one I'm planning to put the EM6000 on. There was this intonation thing getting in my way but not any more. :)

Number 2 has never sounded better. Robbie made it sing like an angel while he was playing it. I'm more of a flat picker since my practice on fingerstyle consists of maybe one day a month. idunno Looks like next month I'll get to meet Michael Dale Payne and probably Frei in the French Polish class at Red Rocks. So.........I guess that's about it. Thanks to everyone who participated in helping elevate me to a new height in the pursuit of the art of Lutherie. Y'all are all the greatest. bliss Now I guess I can put more focus on 3 - 5 which are all in their infancy stages right now. 3 by the way is a 5 string acoustic bass. wow7-eyes
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
No one mentioned a compensated nut. Having your nut heigth correct and the strings leaving it correctly is very important. Some capo the first and intonate off the 13th. fret. And then adjust the nut if need be.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
Good catch Chris. Man, you really hit the ground running, it seems like you are tackling EVERYTHING at once. It is a good idea, especially if you are getting sour sounding open chords, the g# note on the g string seems especially prone to nastyness.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
jordan aceto wrote:
it seems like you are tackling EVERYTHING at once.


Not really, I started building resos in 99. I'm just building my first Acoustic from scratch and finally properly tooling up since I built a small shop to work in. Although sometimes it seems like one step forward and two steps back. So much learn and so little time. So much to build and so little money! :P
But I sure have fun doing it. I guess I'm just a guitar junkie. :)
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
Chris are you inferring that a compensated nut is the same as having your nut height (string height) correct?
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
Chris, No, not at all. But if you intonate off the 1 & 13th. it can help you figure out if there is something wrong with your nut setup. Maybe the placement or the slots are back cut from the front or maybe too high etc. It can help to locate/ isolate some issues that problems with the nut throwing the intonation off. Just something to be aware of.
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
well I'll tell ya I had to learn all that stuff the hard way. It took me 7 DAYS to get the fretted strings notes in the 1st 4 positions intonated. My problems were the strings height was too high and the break point of the string from the slot in the nut was all screwed up.

Here's a chart I made to show you what your intonation will look like if you DON'T PROPERLY slot the nut and adjust string height to their proper levels.

I'll also add that in my mind I still don't have enough of a mental grasp on nut compensation to try it. Still studying.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp/index.htm , its for serious tweakers only.

Chris P., i just meant that i am constantly amazed by the amount of new and challenging things you take on, seemingly every week. You did the beveled arm rest, with abalone purflings!, the adjustable neck thing, shopmade pearl dot cutters, and the reso thing is totally impressive, you win the enthusiasm award.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
Chris, It's the same as shaping/ compensating the saddle. Just like you file the saddle to sharpen or flatten the note you cut the adjust the nut on the open notes after you set it up off the 1st and 13th. Some make the nut closer to the saddle by cutting some off the 1st. Then maybe route the nut back at each string if need be. Some make a step in the nut that sits on the board.
Jordan, Thanks but that just my nature I guess. I think I'm always thinking sometimes. :) I get an idea and I figure what the heck? Don't know if you don't try. And it's pretty cool when it works out and if it doesn't I usually learn something along the way. That's why I ask a lot of questions on the forums. I want to see if someone has tried some of this stuff out already and what happened. That's a great time saver. I guess that's what the forums are about.
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
Chris Paulick wrote:
No one mentioned a compensated nut. Having your nut heigth correct and the strings leaving it correctly is very important. Some capo the first and intonate off the 13th. fret. And then adjust the nut if need be.

Thanks for bringing this up Chris. I don't remember C Fox covering that in his class when I went but that means nothing really since my short term memory at the time was still suffering from a boink on the noggen due to a serious motorcycle accident. Robbie covered some yesterday about the compensated nut and compensated saddle. I took some notes but in reading them I can't really decipher what I wrote since I was all over the page with my notes. Guess I need a class on how to properly take notes. :oops: He also said that the Everett DVD goes into more detail on setup than what we covered yesterday.

Chris Paulick wrote:
jordan aceto wrote:
it seems like you are tackling EVERYTHING at once.


.... sometimes it seems like one step forward and two steps back. So much learn and so little time. So much to build and so little money! :P
But I sure have fun doing it. I guess I'm just a guitar junkie. :)


Ain't that the truth!!! :| Chris I've never told you this personally but I really appreciate all the time and effort you put into the tutorials. I especially like the pinless bridge jig. :)

Back on the subject, I would love to see more in depth conversation here regarding nut and saddle compensation from all are willing to participate and keep it going for a bit longer. This has already been the most informative discussion I've seen along this line and I'd like it to be of maximum benefit to all. Thanks again to Chris for bringing this up. I toss the ball to y'all. Eat Drink
Author:  jordan aceto [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
Heh heh, in a bit of internet research i came across this quote "if my wife finds out how much i spend on this hobby, I am going to be the one with compensated nuts!"
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intonation & Setup
jordan aceto wrote:
Heh heh, in a bit of internet research i came across this quote "if my wife finds out how much i spend on this hobby, I am going to be the one with compensated nuts!"


That is way too close to the truth wow7-eyes laughing6-hehe
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