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LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=22117		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Link Van Cleave [ Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
I bought some of the LMI glue. Used it to glue up a top. Seemed a bit thick to me but no big deal. As a test I put a little blob of it on some kraft paper and put a blob of Titebond 1 next to that. I then spread a thin layer of each on the paper and let dry in good conditions for a couple of days. (The LMI stuff is very clear for sure.) As far as hardness or brittleness I couldn't tell any difference at all. I thought that the blob test would really show some difference but I went at them with a chisel and they were both pretty brittle. In the paper where they were spread thinly no difference. Not the most scientific test but I have a lot of experience with glue and I like empirical testing.
So here is what I think: LMI glue might have more initial tack and it dries clear. I think these are the only advantages. (I am not discounting these attributes) In the glue line thickness of a well fitted joint I don't think it matters one bit. I think the LMI is a white glue with more solids but don't quote me on that.
I think the LMI glue is what we use when we think the hide glue guys might be right but don't want to take the plunge to hide glue. :lol: So we use it and feel better because they claim it more "acoustic" than regular yellow glue.
Will I continue to use it. I think so but I wouldn't worry the least about Titebone 1 either. (Don't like Titebond 2 , maybe cutting boards)
I do like the tack and the clear drying.
The hide glue devotes have made a good enough case that I will definatly try it soon.
So what has been your experience ? (Not with hide glue but with LMI vs. regular yellow glue)
Link
Author:  Flori F. [ Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
Link,

Tim McKnight did some glue tests a while back. He posted his results here: http://www.mcknightguitars.com/glue-hardness.html. He did a different test as well, results here: http://mcknightguitars.com/glue-vib.html

His results make a strong case for lmi white. I'm not quite sure what to make of them myself. As for hide glue, seems to me that the primary benefit of hide glue is ease of repair. It also sets quickly. Whether it really makes for a better sounding guitar? idunno ...certainly lots of folks say so.

- Flori
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
I have been contemplating trying LMI's white glue, and since I just learned in your post it dries clear, I'm going to take
the plunge so to speak. :) This leaves a little better advantage I would think in cleaning up around bracing and linings
over the yeller stuff. :D I don't have enough experience with HHG in building guitars (though I do in making fine furniture)
to be a fair judge of it's advantages or disadvantages.

With the modern glues we have available today, I'm not certain I could be easily convinced that one would produce better
tonality over the other. beehive But when proven wrong, I'm also not above humbling myself and admitting it. Has anyone
done blind tests on this? For example, twin guitars built by the same master luthier, with all the wood from the same stock,
(ie. tops, necks, back & side sets, bracing, fingerboards, etc from the same respective billets for each group) but each one with
different glue? One with AR or white glue, and the other with HHG? I'm curious to know. :)
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
Todd Stock wrote:
I bind using CA or LMI White, but I really like LMI's good manners and it's clarity amkes maple binding jobs almost fun. If I did not use HHG for structural stuff and epoxy for fretboard joints, I'd be using LMI White.


I agree 100% I use CA for bindings and epoxy for oily coco and gluing the fretboard down, LMI white for everything else,
Author:  John Kinnaird jr [ Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
I use CA for pearl work, LMI white on kerfed lining and gluing on top and back plates, epoxie on the fingerboard and cocobolo, and HHG for all braces, Titebond 3 for gluing purfling lines onto binding prior to bending, and Titebond 1 and sometimes LMI for gluing sides to blocks and veneers to pegheads. I can't really defend this behavior, its just what I do.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
I'm almost exactly like John. Hide for all braces and bridge plate,and bridge. LMI for pretty much everything else. Just started using epoxy for the fretboard. Great idea. Didn't Frank Ford rate LMI white pretty close to hide in hardness?
Terry
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
I read the reports by Tim Mcknight that Flori posted above. Looks like he went to some great extremes to get diversity in his
tests. In the first report (hardness test) he was using HHG pretty faithfully and was convinced at least at the time that was the
best way to go.

In the second report though (vibration bump test) he became convinced that the LMI white glue was the best overall and is now
using that on his builds if I read his statement correctly.

Over the years I've determined (at least for me) that HHG is not worth the effort considering the choices we have available today.
The LMI looks even more convincing to me after reading Tim's reports in which I believe it won hands down. As for me and my
builds, CA for bindings, rosettes, and inlays, West Epoxy for the fingerboard, and LMI white (to replace Titebond) for the rest. :)

Oh yes, I've been using Titebond with great success on Cocobolo but I believe I'm going to try using Epoxy. Lance or anyone,
is there an Epoxy that is best for that or would the West Epoxy work well enough?
Author:  Jeffrey L. Suits [ Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
I agree, about LMI glue's, "good manners". Well said.
Author:  Link Van Cleave [ Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
Back to LMI vs. Yellow glue. I read Tim Mcknights test and that was interesting. From what I inferred from his article was he said that the LMI and the White Titebond were almost the same in hardness. That surprises me. That is interesting considering that the white all purpose is reputed to creep more than the yellow. The fact that the Titebond shrunk more is not surprising considering it is less vicous than the LMI. It would have been interesting to see how a structual epoxy would rate.
The LMI does dry amazingly clear. I would use it for unsteamed Pear for sure. I am still skeptical that there is much difference but I will admit there is some and Tim's test and everyones testimony is swaying me. I am much more swayed by the hide glue devotes but again Tim's tests seem to indicate that the LMI might be as good sonicaly.
Link
Author:  woody b [ Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
Disclaimer: I've never used anything except HHG inside the box so I can't cite actual experience with other glues. Obviously there's alot of guitars put together with both Titebond and LMI white glue so I'm not saying the sky is falling.


My take on Tim's glue test.
1. Hats off to Tim for all his hard work on the test
2. I'm not sure gluing steel with wood glue is a good test, but different pieces of wood could cause variations with the wood itself.
3. Tim's results with LMI glue scares me to death, and here's why. I'm an automotive technician with 27 years experience. This is revelant because my LMI glue fear has to do with steel, specifically a crankshaft.( A crankshaft is a big piece of metal from inside an engine) The "quick" test to see if a nodular iron crankshaft is cracked is to hit it with a metal wrench. If the crankshaft isn't cracked it just kinda makes a dull thud(no sustain) when you hit it. If has a crack somewhere it rings like a bell, sustaining for several seconds. I believe the ringing is movement/vibration along the crack. 9999 times out of 10000 further testing(magnaflux or x-ray) will reveal a crack in the ringing shaft.
Tims results with HHG were almost identical as a single piece of unglued steel. This is what I want with a glue joint. I want the glued pieces to "act" as a single piece. Some of the results had less sustain, I believe the adhesive either added weight, or cushioned the pieces. The LMI glue had ALOT more sustain that the unglued piece. Remember the crankshaft. Did the extra sustain come from movement/looseness in the glue joint, just like a crack in a crankshaft?
Again. I'm using HHG, I'm not trying to change anyones mind. I don't care what kind of glue you use, but I believe the extra sustain with the LMI glue is a bad thing.
Author:  LanceK [ Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
Bill Hodge wrote:
Lance or anyone,
is there an Epoxy that is best for that or would the West Epoxy work well enough?


Bill, I use west systems.
Author:  Kim [ Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
If for no other reasons HHG's firm tack upon being slid into final position, its ability to reduce it's own glue line by contracting as it dries, and the ease of clean up, leave it well above anything else for any task to which it is suited, which IMHO, is most everything.

For lack of open time, I would not use HHG to glue the top or back to the sides, but it should be understood that the open time only becomes an issue when you need to fidget for a good while. If you have set up well and are confident in your work, then the open time for HHG is more than adequate for most task.

Having said that, I would not use HHG, or any other water based glue, including LMI white, to glue down the fretboard to the neck. I hate fret work, have not build anymore than one guitar go to whoa but have done my share of repairs. My aim is to fret the board prior to gluing and do little in the way of leveling once it's is in place. Following Rick Turner's train of thought, I feel that any water added to the neck surface once it has been decked is detrimental to this goal.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  Haans [ Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
I used the LMI glue once many years ago on a mandolin and within a year, the whole instrument fell apart. I know what they say about how it smells, but it was a brand new bottle and smelled OK to me.
I've used Titbond for many years to glue the F/B on the neck, but I level and fret the F/B after glueing on...
Author:  Alan [ Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
I use LMI white for everything. With the recent discussions on using epoxy for the fretboard, I've considered making a change there, but I'm still a little concerned about the possible difficulty of removing the fretboard, should that be necessary. After all, I wouldn't want to epoxy a dovetail joint because it would make it difficult to take apart, so thought the same might be the case for the fretboard. I know that there has been discussion about epoxy releasing with heat, but has anyone tried that yet?
Author:  Tai Fu [ Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
I use hide glue for joints that I want to take apart in the future, like bridge or dovetail necks, titebond for everything else because titebond is ready to use, hide glue has to be heated and I really don't like how they are slippery which makes gluing braces really interesting (it always slip no matter what, even with go-bars) I won't use epoxy on a guitar except for U channel Martin style truss rods that are meant to be epoxied in. I don't like the toxicity of epoxy and it's messy and if you get the ratio wrong by accident you will have rubber-like glue joint. Also epoxy doesn't release with heat, otherwise they wouldn't be using it in composites. They do release with heat but the heat will be so high that wood will turn into charcoal before the epoxy starts to soften. Maybe some brands of epoxy releases with heat but consider that epoxies are most often used in aircraft and boats and they do get hot. Epoxy is good for joints that fits poorly since epoxy has good gap filling properties, or for filling major defects.
Author:  woody b [ Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
I guess this thread is getting off topic, I apologise for my part in getting it that way.

However, I have used heat to dis assemble epoxy before. It wasn't easy. I did a neck reset on an asian guitar that had the dovetail epoxied. I've also removed fingerboards that were epoxied. I'm sure different epoxies act differently. I normally use titebond to glue the FB to the neck though. I use a big homemade clamping caul/brace to hold the neck straight while the glue dries. I won't use HHG for gluing the FB to the neck. I believe the heat from HHG could cause further warping problems. I don't have much of a problem with HHG joints slipping. Maybe my glue is a little thinner (more water?) or something.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
I actually use a clamp to slightly cause the neck to underbow so that any backbow will be counteracted and the neck will be straight with the truss rod relaxed. This was explained in the Stewmac kit instruction. I had an asian guitar that had a epoxied in flush joint with no dowels or bolts. I found this out by smashing it... the neck came off so easily, like it was stuck on with the varnish.
Author:  Jody [ Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
Alan wrote:
I use LMI white for everything. With the recent discussions on using epoxy for the fretboard, I've considered making a change there, but I'm still a little concerned about the possible difficulty of removing the fretboard, should that be necessary. After all, I wouldn't want to epoxy a dovetail joint because it would make it difficult to take apart, so thought the same might be the case for the fretboard. I know that there has been discussion about epoxy releasing with heat, but has anyone tried that yet?

"locktite" 6 minute epoxy says it is good up to 130 f . i used that for my neck. the way things seem to go, i would hate to have a failure due to swollen wood. Jody
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
Quote:
Bill, I use west systems.

Thanks Lance. I'm getting ready to build an MJ style size out of cocobolo. I'm going to try switching from Titebond to LMI's white glue on a few builds at least. So I believe it's going to be West System Epoxy for this one because I'm concerned that I won't be able to trust white glue with coco. I still can't make myself use HHG on a Steel String but I may try it out on my first classical build coming up this summer.
Author:  Kim [ Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
Alan wrote:
I know that there has been discussion about epoxy releasing with heat, but has anyone tried that yet?


Keeping in mind that all epoxies are NOT created equal and you should therefore choose a glue with the properties to best suit the task at hand, ei; don't glue a fretboard on with high temperature resistant epoxies. duh Then yes, I have tried it and the process went something like this:

Step 1: Pull the frets.

Step 2: Lay u'r heat blanket on top of the fretboard and heat it up.

Step 3: Work the fretboard off from the extension to the nut as the epoxy softens.

No such a big deal and no harder than any other glue, however I would not epoxy a dovetail because unlike a fretboard, it is difficult to get the required heat into the joint to soften the glue.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  Mike Collins [ Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
Fish Glue !
No heat ,no problems,high tack !!

the new Gorilla white glue works great !
high tack -drys clear-and is available in most hardware stores.

There are only a handfull of glue makers in this country!

The Titebond Co.
The Bordens/ Elmer Co.
for 2 of the most recogonized ones.
I would think a little wood supplier in Ca. buys in bulk from one of these suppliers.
So the product would be the same -hopefully as the suppliers glue.
beehive
I have used Lmii's white for years and love it!

My 2 cents!
Mike
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
Mike,

I've never tried Fish Glue. Where would be the best source for that? I'm also in search of the supplier with the best pricing on the West System Epoxy. I'm not confident that my current source has the best price. :)
Author:  woody b [ Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
The only fish glue source I know of is Norlands. https://www.norlandprod.com/Fishdefault.tpl but there's probably others. I think it's ironic that fish glue disolves in water, but fish don't :D
Author:  Kim [ Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
woody b wrote:
I think it's ironic that fish glue disolves in water, but fish don't :D


Some do and some don't, depends on their 'scale' of sole-ubility I guess. Oh, never mind, just angling for the halibut. laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe 8-)

Cheers

Kim
Author:  jmpbuffalo [ Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LMI glue vs. Titebond 1
You can also get fish glue here: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx ... ,110,42965

I'm using it for my first build, so far with apparent success.

Joe
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