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big factory guitars... how is it done?
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Author:  Tai Fu [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  big factory guitars... how is it done?
I think we're pretty familiar with how custom makers like us make guitars but I was wondering how do big factory makers (I mean Asian imports like Samick or Yamaha) make their guitars so cheaply? I mean by looking at Taylor's factory Fridays it's pretty clear how it's made but how about those no name cheap guitars like Epiphone and etc?

By the way I saw an episode of "How it's made" on acoustic guitars and they boil the side and just casually press it into a mold and use a heated press to steam out the water. But I think the side looks like it's plywood.
Author:  John Mayes [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
I'm guessing very cheap labor mainly. Low quality materials bought in bulk, and a streamlined system.
Author:  Mark Groza [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
Lots of glue and cheap scrap wood.
Author:  MRS [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
I missed this episode. It was on to late for me and i was tired so i turned it off before the guitar part. Boiling sides was used in building many old traditional instruments and even many fine classic violins. Stradavari bent wood this way.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
The How's It Made episode was on Godin guitars (they've done one on acoustics and one on electrics, both at Godin) in Quebec. They're definitely not getting by on cheap, Asian labour. Godin is priced under a lot of overseas guitars, even. They do it with economy of scale on materials (they pay something like $6 CDN each for clear, quartered spruce tops!) and building much more efficiently than everyone else.

A great production system can work wonders so far as time goes. Around 8-10 hours labour per instrument is pretty standard factory time. Having a great flow and expert workers can get processes going at absurd speeds. Anyone doing anything at Taylor has more experience in their process during their first two weeks than any hand builder will have in their entire career. If you've ever seen a really good carpenter lay down nails...practice makes really fast.
Author:  MRS [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
I think Godin makes quality guitars at a good price. They made or still make necks for fender under contract.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
I can get solid sitka spruce top for 6 CDN in Taiwan when I go to the supplier I found. They make plywood for guitar factories in Taiwan. I thought it was a steal and their price makes the 4 hour trip there worth it.
Author:  Jody [ Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
Thats funny Bob ! now just put a "scary sharp " chisel in the kids hand and stand back ! jody
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
First I want to say not all Asian guitars are cheap as in poor construction and low quality wood. In fact several of the names you mentioned build high end as well as entry level guitars. That said the answers to your question can be found in labor rates, assembly line construction,low cost per unit materials due to both grade and volume procurement and less attention to QC.

Just a bit of history in the 50s-early 70s most of Epiphone's guitars very top quality. Many are vintage Epiphones bring bo-ko bucks today. the thing you have to keep in mind is that today's Epiphone is not the Epiphone of back then. Today's Epiphone is just Gibson's entry level.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
The 50's-70's Epiphones were also entry level Gibsons. They just had a better entry level back then. The Epiphones built before Gibson bought the name are generally thought of as being as good or better than the Gibson of the same period.
I have bought AA grade Engleman spruce tops for $6 apiece when I buy 50 sets at a time. A production guitar maker isn't looking to use wallpaper grade on the literally "Run of the Mill" instrument.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
The Goden, seagull etc group of guitars are also built with somewhat cheap labour as they are in a town of less than 1000 people in southern Quebec where the cost of living is low. A joke I have heard is LaPatrie Quebec has 600 people and 300 build guitars at Goden. On this topic I just heard Pepino D'Agostino play last night and he uses a Seagull Artist model developed for him and it is the best sounding $2,000 guitar I have ever heard. Their low end guitars have laminated sides and backs but the Artist models are all solid woods. They use a lot of cherry wood and spruce grows local to them, in fact that is one the areas where red spruce ( adirondack ) is still harvested.

Fred
Author:  L. Presnall [ Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
Here's one way to make a cheap guitar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFFvrHHct70
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
Clay S. wrote:
The 50's-70's Epiphones were also entry level Gibsons. They just had a better entry level back then. The Epiphones built before Gibson bought the name are generally thought of as being as good or better than the Gibson of the same period.
I have bought AA grade Engleman spruce tops for $6 apiece when I buy 50 sets at a time. A production guitar maker isn't looking to use wallpaper grade on the literally "Run of the Mill" instrument.



I can be wrong here but I don't think Gibson bought into Epiphone till mid 70s epi mand a big name for them self in the 50s and 60s with first class arc tops. and then Gibson bought into the company.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
The History of Epiphone
http://www.epiphone.com/images/N_GuitarBuyerEpi.pdf
Author:  DGr33n [ Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
L. Presnall wrote:
Here's one way to make a cheap guitar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFFvrHHct70


You could never afford to pay that many Americans, especially in a major city.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
Michael Dale Payne wrote:
The History of Epiphone
http://www.epiphone.com/images/N_GuitarBuyerEpi.pdf


Not all the history is there. In 1957 CMI bought Gibson. a few months later CMI bought Epiphone. In the early 60s as Epiphone inventory was used up CMI started building Gibson Designs as Epiphones. by the early 70's all Epiphone productions with the exception of the Epmpior and Deluxe was Gibson mid to low end models sold as Epiphone. In the late 70s almost all production was for Gibson designs for entry market, electric and accoustic.
Author:  ChuckH [ Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
Thanks for posting that link Michael. That was interesting.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
Quote:
You could never afford to pay that many Americans, especially in a major city


OSHA would have something to say about the worker safety standards, and the environmental people would love that spray booth.

I bet the shipping cost from China is more than the labor costs to build the product. I people keep buying this kind of junk it will soon be all we can get and then what will it cost.

Fred
Author:  Tai Fu [ Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
It seems here they don't care as much about rules and regulations as they do in America. The factories I have been to in Taiwan none of the workers wore safety glasses even when operating somewhat dangerous machinery. I guess that keeps costs down. It's getting to be like America in Taiwan in a way because of insurance and other stuff that factories are pulling out and moving to China or worse yet, Vietnam where labor is cheaper and there are no concern about worker rights or whatever. I mean I never actually seen a real guitar factory in Taiwan or heard of one and I wouldn't be surprised if they were closing their doors and moving production to China. I mean that factory who makes guitar specific wood has to supply someone but if that's the only place around doing that it probably doesn't look good for the luthiery industry in Taiwan.
Author:  Parser [ Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
I think World Musical Instruments in South Korea is probably the company you are thinking of when you think of asian made instruments (that is the name I have heard them called anyhow). They make import instruments for a number of US companies and they are supposedly larger than any of them. They are able to make pretty much any quality of instrument as well...from a high production beginner guitar up to an instrument as good as what anyone else is making. I think most companies would prefer not to infringe on the market served by their US factories...so they only order lower end instruments.

Most of their equipment would be considered vintage by US/Canada standards. They use a lot of equipment like pin routers, large belt sanders, and in general, a lot of dedicated jigs. As far as I know, they do not use ANY CNC equipment at all. So, that should make the instruments more appealing to those people who believe CNC is evil :D

From a manufacturing standpoint, the dedicated jig mentality makes sense when you are doing high production #'s. I think CNC makes more sense in an environment where you have a higher product mix.

Of course, the main driver in outsourcing manufacturing work always comes down to labor rates. Safety and environmental regs are wrapped up in this number with worker salaries. South Korea is still a bunch cheaper than the US. I don't know by how much, but it would be extremely hard for a US company to compete on a cost basis with the instruments produced for this market.

Trev
Author:  tommygoat [ Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
I read that Gibson recently opened a plant in China.
Author:  radsboy [ Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
Who makes Blue Ridge guitars? I know this is a controversial subject, but it happens that I play one and am awfully well pleased with it compared to a Gibson and Martin (both 70's vintage) I have also owned -

I gave a guy $400 for it, third hand -

Meanwhile I am still working on build #1 -

David
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: big factory guitars... how is it done?
radsboy wrote:
Who makes Blue Ridge guitars? I know this is a controversial subject, but it happens that I play one and am awfully well pleased with it compared to a Gibson and Martin (both 70's vintage) I have also owned -

I gave a guy $400 for it, third hand -

Meanwhile I am still working on build #1 -

David


Saga makes (or at least distributes) them. They are really good, and they're finding their way into the hands of a lot of the older musicians around here (the guys who buy with their ears). My main acoustic is a BR that I got for around $400 US.
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