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Wicking CA under frets
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=21938		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Todd Rose [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Wicking CA under frets
Okay, I know this is simple, really, and I've watched Frank Ford do it a couple times. But here's what happens when I try it: I have my little pieces of paper towel ready and I wipe on both sides of the fret with acetone immediately after wicking in the CA. But I can't seem to get right up to the very edge of the fret with my wipe, so I end up with a little shiny line of CA visible along each side of the fret. I can get rid of that with a chisel, but that starts to get time consuming. Does this happen to you? If not, what do you suppose you might be doing differently than me?

I've tried waxing the board first, but that didn't work well for me either; it was just more of a mess to clean up. I'm looking for quick and effective and perfect-looking results. Any tips on the finer points of your method, anybody?

Thanks!
Author:  Jimmy Caldwell [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
Todd,

Just a question, but unless you're installing bar frets, why would you use CA? I know some use glue, but I think it's mainly for lubrication of the fret slot, not adhesion. I use CA on bar fret jobs, and wiping immediately with an acetone moistened paper towel works pretty well for me in that application.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
Good question Todd. My attemps at it aren't too great either. I'm interested in this too.
But I noticed that when Dan E. does it he uses a capulary tip on the CA bottle, (this could be where I'm going wrong not using that fine tip). He applies the paste wax with a Q tip.(that wax can play hell getting in the pores of MR) I also noticed he wipes fast with the Acetone with a real quick follow of the accelerator. I think he sometimes also cleans up with a fingure file. I'm wondering if one would dust the slot first with baking soda and blow out any heavy soda then press fret and CA if the ca would harded and then allow you to really whipe the board/ fret with the acetone and get more of the CA up without worrying about the acetone getting under the fret.
Author:  Jody [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
I think the tip is important and using super thin grade seemed to wick beter for me... on the two i have done so far, sealing the finger board is a must , wax works well for ebony,not sure what to use to seal the rosewood first , i tried wax and also had to use a dental pic to remove it from the grain , i think I will try howards next time... ... Jody
Author:  Todd Rose [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
Frank Ford doesn't use wax. The quick wipe with acetone seems to take care of it for him (though I must admit I haven't looked that closely at his boards to see if he gets the CA off right up to the edge of the fret - he may not be concerned about that). I'd be willing to bet David Collins doesn't take the time to apply and clean off wax, either. Since Hesh just had a fretting lesson with him, I'm hoping he'll have some helpful tips to share here... Hesh?

Jimmy, in all honesty, I use glue because of the many luthiers with a lot more experience than myself who say it's a good idea. And many of them use thin CA, wicked in after the fret is in. I think of it as insurance. I am not convinced that it makes any difference in tone, as some claim - though it would if the glue were used to make up for loose/poorly seated frets, but that's not the way I would go about it, anyway.

If I were to try the wax method again, I would use a colored paste wax that matches the FB wood, so I wouldn't have to worry about getting it out of the pores. Jody, I doubt Howard Feed 'n' Wax would work, because I don't think it has a high enough wax content to sit on the surface and create a barrier to the CA. It's really a penetrating oil that contains some wax. But, hey, give it a try if you're so inclined, and let us know how it goes.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
Jimmy, myself I am wicking a small amount of CA at each end just to avoid problems when nipping the overhangs. It happened to me a couple times, of course accompanied by ebony chipping, even if I don't think I really levered against it . So a bit of CA is a good assurance against this. I suppose the heat used during fret removal softens CA as well so it is not an issue for future repairs?
Author:  Todd Rose [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
Chris Paulick wrote:
I'm wondering if one would dust the slot first with baking soda and blow out any heavy soda then press fret and CA if the ca would harded and then allow you to really whipe the board/ fret with the acetone and get more of the CA up without worrying about the acetone getting under the fret.


Interesting thought, Chris. Thanks for your input.
Author:  James Orr [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
Thanks for starting this thread. I've wondered about this, too.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
Todd ;
is this for fixing a loose fret -or doing a refret ?

I use thin painters tape on each side of the fret for the loose ends and such.
I use med. ca for a new fretting applying the glue in the slot .

I find med. holds great -especially in rosewood. !

Mike
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
I use the wax method, Butcher's wax so far and it cleans up nicely on ebony and rosewood. The wax is applied right on the edge of the fret after fretting with a hammer. I use a pipete to wick the CA with the tube stretched to a hair, whatever little falls on the wax lifts cleanly with a chisel.
It's easy to overdo it and put too much CA, a couple of drops are enough to lock the fret ends.
I've never been too successful with wiping acetone, probably not fast enough.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
I dont worry too much about wiping the dismal seepage off, after it hardens i use single edge razor blades to scrape in between each fret, the whole board only takes 50 or so seconds. I usually press frets in with one of the jaws'es, and then wick thin CA in from the middle of the fret while they are still being held down by jaws.
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
I learned the razor blade scraping method method Jordan is talking about from Charles Fox and have been using it since with no problems at all. I flood the slot with med CA first (NOT to the top though) :)
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
I keep a razor handy. let it dry then scrape with the razor with the grain for fret edge out.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
Mike Collins wrote:
Todd ;
is this for fixing a loose fret -or doing a refret ?

I use thin painters tape on each side of the fret for the loose ends and such.
I use med. ca for a new fretting applying the glue in the slot .

I find med. holds great -especially in rosewood. !

Mike


Mike, this is for fretting a new board (refretting, too, though) - just for getting some glue in the slot with the tang to lock it down.

Interesting that you're having success with masking tape. My experience with thin CA and masking tape is that the CA wicks right under the tape. Gluing down loose fret ends by wicking in thin CA is another situation where the resulting CA mess on the board has been a time consuming thing for me.

I've also thought about trying medium CA in the slot, as you do, as an alternative to wicking in thin CA after the fret is in. I'm glad to hear that's working for you. I've been a little hesitant to try that, thinking I might get squeeze out and have that mess to deal with - or worse, have a bit of CA come splattering out at me when I hammer the fret in. Probably unfounded fears, though, and I should just try it. Do you hammer or press your frets in?
Author:  Todd Rose [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
Thanks, Laurent, Jordan, Bill, and Michael, for all your input. This is really helpful and much appreciated. I kinda felt like this was a dumb question, but nobody's said anything to reinforce that feeling at all. [:Y:] Y'all are great.

Along the lines of putting medium CA in the slot first (glad to hear that's working for you, too, Bill - even with a hammer), I've also been thinking of trying fish glue. It bonds to wood and metal, and seems like it might be easier to clean up any squeeze out. Plus, no eye-irritating fumes.

On the other hand, I like the idea of thin CA flowing down into the slot over the tops of the barbs - seems like it might be the best way to really lock the tang down. I'll have to try the razor blade clean-up method. If that works well for me, then that should pretty much solve it.
Author:  David Newton [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
Todd (and all)
I also ca when fretting, but I run a line of thin glue down the slot before I set the fret in, then hammer. I use the little tubes of glue. Some does spit out the ends, but I'm fretting a loose board or glued to an unfinished neck. Hardly any comes out on the face of the board.

If it's a bound board, careful not to flood the slot, nowhere for any extra glue to go.

I wipe with a T shirt cloth, it usually wicks well, but I use my sharp 3/8" chisel along the juncture of the fret and board if there is any stray glue visible. Everything else cleans up when I'm polishing the board and frets at finish time.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
It wasnt during fretting, but recently i hammered something that had CA on it, and a drop of CA spit out like a grapefruit does and landed right in my eyeball. It wasnt as big of a deal as i would have thought, but it still sucked. So, eye protection while hammering anything with CA near it!
Author:  Darrin D Oilar [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
jordan aceto wrote:
It wasnt during fretting, but recently i hammered something that had CA on it, and a drop of CA spit out like a grapefruit does and landed right in my eyeball. It wasnt as big of a deal as i would have thought, but it still sucked. So, eye protection while hammering anything with CA near it!



I have this cute little older lady that comes into the office. Her precocious eleven year old granddaughter was out visiting and just wearing this poor lady out. Well the little girl wanted some fake fingernails, so grandma bought a little kit and told the girl she'd help her do it. The girl, who of course didn't want any help, rushed into the house ahead of grandma and was going to do it herself. The only problem was she couldnt get the cap off the glue. So, she grabbed the cap in between her teeth and twisted the other end. Glue shot out of the tube and glued her eye closed, and luckily for grandma, most of her mouth too. Fortunately for her it didnt get on the eye itself, but she did lose all the lashes as the ER docs tried to cut them off to see if they could get the eye open.

So I guess the moral is, careful with the CA glue, even if you guys are just putting on a fresh set of nails. I guess the other moral is, even super glue can't quiet an 11 year old girl.

Darrin
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
As I stated before, ALWAYS wear eye protection when working with CA. Those tips get clogged all the time and when you go and squeeze it it can fly anywhere.
Author:  David Collins [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
No special tips here, other than what's already been said. I use about all the techniques mentioned on different cases.

If I'm clamping a lot of loose frets after running glue in to the slot and expecting squeeze out, sometimes I'll wax so that the big splooge squeeze out will pop off quickly and cleanly with a chisel. Sometimes I use paraffin/bees wax mix I use for pickup potting, sometimes I'll uses a cake of peg dope. If I'm gluing frets on an old well played board, wax is often totally unnecessary as the board is already pretty well oiled. Sometimes on a fresh new board I'll do the acetone wipe method. Most of the time though, I just dry wipe with a paper towel. I pretty much always scrape with a razor just before final polishing anyway, and this takes care of everything other than big globs from clamping squeeze out.

I use the lowest viscosity CA glue in a pipette, as do most. All frets need to be glued in in my opinion. I wouldn't ever let an unglued fret job leave my shop. They may look fine when they leave, but as a repair tech I see them years after installation, and can testify that they don't stay down reliably. CA glue is an obvious choice because it bonds wood to metal very well, dries quickly, and releases very easily with heat. I don't apply thick glue within the slot for the exact reason Jordan mentioned. Even if it doesn't get in your eye (been there too, not much fun), I'd rather avoid the risk of spatter and squeeze out.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
Do any of you just use hide glue when pressing frets and do any of you wick CA in from the side?
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
jordan aceto wrote:
It wasnt during fretting, but recently i hammered something that had CA on it, and a drop of CA spit out like a grapefruit does and landed right in my eyeball. It wasnt as big of a deal as i would have thought, but it still sucked. So, eye protection while hammering anything with CA near it!


Absolutely eye protection. In fact eye protection is a standard practice in my shop from the moment I begin in the AM till I'm done in the PM. Sometimes I even wear them at lunch. you never know you might get a bread crumb or something in your eye. Eat Drink

I used the hammering pic because someone else took that of me when I used that method. The board I'm fretting there is a
bound board and I guess I've been fortunate not to get too much CA in there. I no longer hammer these days but rather use
the Stew Mac Drill Press mounted Fret Press cauls. Much quicker and easier IMO. Works for me anyway :)
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
jordan aceto wrote:
I dont worry too much about wiping the dismal seepage off, after it hardens i use single edge razor blades to scrape in between each fret, the whole board only takes 50 or so seconds. I usually press frets in with one of the jaws'es, and then wick thin CA in from the middle of the fret while they are still being held down by jaws.


Same here, except it's not the Jaw's but rather something more 'home made'.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
Chris Paulick wrote:
do any of you wick CA in from the side?


If the board is unbound i do.
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wicking CA under frets
I have used the super glue wicking method and found (on Laurent's suggestion) that butchers wax works great and cleans off the board with naptha easily. When I do that I will apply the wax to the edge of the fret and then run a razor blade along the edge of the fret to allow an opening for the glue to wick in.

Now I am pressing on the drill press and gluing in with either LMI white or hide glue applied to the tang and the overhang (on a bound board). Water on a rag cleans both up perfectly and if you take a second and manipulate the radius of the fret by hand to match the slot perfectly I have been getting very precise seating and the ends stay down very well.

I did build a press like what Mario uses to literally clamp the frets in place until they dried but I must have done something wrong as there was too much play. The pressure of forcing the fret in distorted the frame too much to make it accurate. I plan to make a more heavy duty version as this is the method I would prefer to use even though my results with the drill press have been good. Sometimes the larger size frets (especially the gold) are not as cooperative and the big press would help there.
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