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Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=21935		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  patmguitars [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
Hey Folks

I was just french polishing a Spruce top and started thinking: I wonder if epoxy diluted in alcool would make a good sealer, or base coat before FP? I am just curious and would like to know if anybody here has ever tried that.

I thought that if would make a better sealer than shellac, as it can be applied more evenly. I am already using it to seal and fill the small gaps in the rosette with excellent results. I figure a 50/50 Z-Poxy and alcool would also produce a very appealling amber glow to a Spruce top.

Any experiences with pros and cons about this would be greatly appreciated. pizza

Cheers

Pat
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
better choice would be to stiff with egg whites. Diluted epoxy can be used. but will darken the wood some and will add some dampening affect tonally. How much dampenng is probably very little but some non the less.
Author:  Erik Hauri [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
Also many epoxies will not cure well (hard) if first diluted with alchohol. They can stay a bit sticky.
Author:  LanceK [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
I am pretty sure that Joe While seals the top with Epoxy. He says he likes the added hardness that it gives the top as far as ding protection is concerned.

I know for a fact that Tony Ferguson does because I've seen guitar slathered in Epoxy hanging in his paint room.

Before I switched to subbing out my finishing, I use to zpoxy the tops of all my guitars. Never tried System 3, but If I ever get back to doing my own finish I will try it.

That however will not happen until I have a shop separate from the home. No spraying lacquer in the basement. Wifes rules!
Author:  SniderMike [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
I too have noticed that epoxy diluted with DA doesn't seem to completely harden. I thinned a batch with lacquer thinner once, however, and it got very hard. I didn't actually use that on a guitar though, just some scrap.
Author:  RaymundH [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
For hardwood soundboards (i.e. Koa, mahogany etc...) would you do the full Z-Poxy process of two coats and a washcoat or scale it back??

I would assume you would have to sand back to bare wood, leaving only the pores filled, to minimize any dampening effects of the Z-popxy?

I've done several B&S with this process and have never had a sticky washcoat. I do, however, measure it exactly 50/50 to hopefully ensure no issues.

Such an exact science this guitar building stuff eh?
Author:  patmguitars [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
Hey Guys

The point about dampening confirms my thoughts, but then again I know a fair amount of luthiers who use nitro and other hard finishes for their tops with pretty good results. My conclusion is that a thin diluted epoxy wash coat will have some dampening effect, but that it will fall between a shellac only FP and a harder finish.

I have not had the problem with diluted Z-Poxy not hardening up. I have been using Z-Poxy as a pore filler for a handfull of guitars now, and after level sanding it I use a diluted coat of it to cover up the sand through spots and the entire pore-filled area. It produces a nice and even surface to either FP on or apply a waterbased lacquer. Each time I have used it, diluted Z-Poxy hardened without problems in 24 hours. Mind you this was over hard woods and not on Spruce or Cedar.

I will wait a bit longer and hopefully more input will help me decide whether I try it or not.

Cheers

Pat
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
Wouldn't that make repairs harder? I don't like the chemical aspect to it either. You can get an amber tint by using orange shellac or siam seedlac. I applied the shellac seal coats using Robbie's FP technic and it went on thin and even. And you have control of how dark you want to tint it. I'm trying to get away from as much fumes as possible. The CA and Nitro are probably killing me enough as it is. But that's just me.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
Chris Paulick wrote:
The CA and Nitro are probably killing me enough as it is. But that's just me.


CA is not killing you (non toxic) but it may iritate the heck out of your eys and sinus membrains :o
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
It is very toxic if you are sensitized to it. It didn't used to bother me, but now the fumes will send me into a 3 or 4 day asthma eruption, where I end up using an emergency inhaler 4 or 5 times a day, when I don't normally use one at all. I have one, but usually leave it at home. Also, if I get it on my hand, and touch my neck or somewhere else that's tender, that place will break out in a rash and itch like crazy. It might not kill you, but it'll make you miserable.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
WaddyThomson wrote:
It is very toxic if you are sensitized to it. It didn't used to bother me, but now the fumes will send me into a 3 or 4 day asthma eruption, where I end up using an emergency inhaler 4 or 5 times a day, when I don't normally use one at all. I have one, but usually leave it at home. Also, if I get it on my hand, and touch my neck or somewhere else that's tender, that place will break out in a rash and itch like crazy. It might not kill you, but it'll make you miserable.


That is allergy not toxicity. I understand your point but they are two differnent things
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
But Michael, I disagree. I used to use it all the time, without issue. I used it to glue on nails, and for all kinds of other stuff. for years. Then, one day, I was sensitive. Much like Kim's experience with Epoxy.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
Either way this stuff is bad news for you.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
WaddyThomson wrote:
But Michael, I disagree. I used to use it all the time, without issue. I used it to glue on nails, and for all kinds of other stuff. for years. Then, one day, I was sensitive. Much like Kim's experience with Epoxy.




here we go again [headinwall] [headinwall] [headinwall]

I sorry for your allergic sensitivity.
look you can and I can disagree all day long. but toxicity and an allergic sensitivity are two different things.

Both are bad and to those that have the sensitivity the distinction between an allergic sensitivity is of no difference. Just like the issue with epoxy I understand that . A certain sector of the population can become sensitive to most any compound. Natural as well as man made. We all know people that are severely allergic to peanuts. I have a cousin that is severely allergic to three specific grass species. Neither of those thing are toxins!! That fact of aquired sensitivity does not make anyof them toxic even to those that have the sensitivity. It may very well cause serious or life threatening allergic reactions, but those are not toxic reactions.

Now I know I am about to receive a major scolding from many of my friends here but I frankly don't give a %*#$!!!!!!. You see I understand the need for those that have acquired such sensitivity to warn of the danger and I think that is a great service to the community. I will be the first to stand with you and wave such a warning flag! But don't clam that the product are toxic. Claim that there is a real risk of acquiring allergic sensitivity that can cause sever to life threatening allergic reaction. However to claim toxicity to a product that is no inherently toxic I will also be the first to stand against you.

Now you can all let loose on me like you did last time. I will take it all in stride :D

Sincerely
Michael
Author:  Jeff Highland [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
Michael is right,
Sensitivity or allergic reactions are not a toxic effect, they are the body's allergic system overreaction to a substance. this may occur with one exposure but tend to be worse with subsequent exposures.
And sometimes after years of use it will suddenly become a problem.

This is NOT making light of the problem, allergic reactions can be life threatening but it is not strictly speaking a toxicity situation.
Author:  Brook Moore [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
In regard to the original question, bear in mind that the use of epoxy diluted 50/50 takes you totally outside of any manufacturers description of acceptable use of their product. At that dilution, the product only cures to a hard rubbery consistency, though I have not found it to be actually sticky as some have described. Yes it is sandable, but if you pour out a layer to dry somewhere, you will find it be much more flexible than normal cured epoxy. Even though some people are successfully using this "wash coat" as a sealer, I sure would not want a layer of rubber, no matter how thin, on my soundboard, or depending on it to hold my finish. I would think that people looking for a super thin epoxy would be better off trying one of the thin formulations developed to saturate rotten wood, if they come in a clear version. And by the way, lacquer thinner is definitely a better thinner for epoxy than alcohol. Also, why do you say that it would be easier to apply an even coat of thin epoxy than a cost of shellac?
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using diluted epoxy to seal a soundboard
My point was that some products, while not toxic, are sensitizers. While they may not have an effect on everyone at the same rate, it's just a matter of time until one becomes sensitive. I believe that's what Kims physician(a specialist) told him about epoxy. Over time, everyone will become sensitized if exposed enough. Some people may die before they reach the limit. (Naturally, that is)
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