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Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=21840		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
Tony's neck blank quality thread got me thinking.....

I recently purchased 2 sets of "Master Grade Italian Spruce". It's not as "master" as I would have expected.
There are a couple of tiny knots and discolorations that spoil it and downgrade it IMO. The photos make it
look redder than it really is - in reality it's quite white.

(Right click the pictures to see/download the full resolution versions)

First set:
Image

Second set:
Image

What do you think? Is it "master" quality? Send it back? Ask for a price reduction? Shut up and use it? Anyone with any experience care to comment?

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  Ricardo [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
Dave, it certainly seems to be fine grained (many lines/inch). Doesn't look like the pitch pockets go all the way through. Other than the knot, which you can avoid, it looks pretty nice to me.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
It looks pretty good to me. The knots seem to certainly be outside the body area, or easily avoided. Grain count looks pretty even across the board. If it's perfectly quartered, I would say it is in the master grade area.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
Thanks guys - what about the not-quite-straight grain near the bottom at the center join in set #2?
The pitch pockets don't go all the way through, so if I choose the right side out and sand it judiciously, it will be okay.
However, if it's sold as "master" then should I have to do that?
It is actually perfectly quartersawn - absolutely 90 degrees straight up and down!
I'm going to get on and use it...

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  Daniel Minard [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
I have been getting Euro Spruce from a guy in Switzerland. I haven't bought a lot of it, but the AAA & High AAA tops I have are straighter grained & more even in colour than the ones in your pics.
The wood I have has wider grain & the grain spacing is less even, so perhaps is evens the score. I feel that master grade wood should have very straight, even grain & the colour should be as good as it gets for the species.
The knots are not an issue unless they influence how straight the grain is within the appropriate sized pattern
As always... This is just one more opinion. You have to be the final judge. Most dealers offer a money back guarantee, if you feel the wood is not up to grade.
If you are unhappy, you should contact the seller.
Author:  James Orr [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
Dave, I agree with Daniel. The two 3A Italian tops I have from Rivolta are perfectly quartered with straight grain. Your tops are very very nice, but master grade prices should get you wood that's truly superior. I recently bought a 3A figured maple Les Paul top from one of the two big California dealers, sent in two pictures, spoke with someone to confirm that they'd received them, and got a board with A grade figure (meaning just a little more than none). While they were exceptionally good about letting me return the top, I was really disappointed with what they sent out. I paid considerably more than what I'd paid another supplier for a true master grade top. I'd let them know you're disappointed and give them the chance to respond.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
Thanks Daniel/James - you are right, I've changed my mind - I have 3A grade sitka tops with much straighter grain and more even color than these. I have written to my supplier and asked them what they are going to do about it. I'll let y'all know what they say.

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
I've received too Master grade wood that was 3A at best, and 3A that was Master in my book, but so far returning and having to argue with the supplier over such small issues was not worth the effort. Things tend to compensate one way or the other in the longer run. I see no reason why the top in the picture would not be suited for the finest kind of guitar. It doesn't have extreme silking, meaning it is not dead-on perfectly quartered (that is rare anyway), but it is very close however, and better than average. Also the even grain spacing is really nice. Unless it has severe runout, I would not complain about it.
Author:  David LaPlante [ Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
Alas, even "Master" grade wood is not "perfect" and the argument can be made that "master" isn't as "master" as it used to be considering the supply these days.
No one has mentioned the most important qualities of stiffness for weight and hardness and whether the top was selected for these characteristics........grain lines, silking and quarter etc, are only important as they relate to the above.

In general I have to say that I don't think guitar making should be about using "perfect" wood.
It's about using ordinary wood and doing something special with it.

Not the other way around.
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
Dave, David beat me to it.
I was going to say "tap it". How does it sound?
I don't have any Italian spruce in my stash, and thus no way to compare your pictures. (Don't know first-hand what's coming out of Italy.) It could be that those two tops are superior to any others from Italy?
Whatever, they certainly are lovely, and I wouldn't hesitate to build with them. Those tiny little "issues" are easily avoided.

Steve
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
Is it just my screen or does anyone else see low-contrast photos with an overall purple-brown cast that makes it really hard to see any details?
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
I would say the photos are definitely worse than the tops. If you right click on it, open it in a new tab, then expand it to max zoom, you get a pretty large picture, and you can scroll back and forth and up and down and see pretty good detail, but you are right that the lighting was really poor.
Author:  Rick Davis [ Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
Just to keep on beating a subject I've hammered on for years: There is NO consistent definition of "Master" or "AAA" or any of the other wood grading terms used by vendors. The highest grade that is well-defined and widely used is "FAS" -- firsts and seconds. That includes ALL of the wood sold to us for instruments. Well, maybe not ALL, but virtually all. The higher grades are vendor-defined and reflect subjective values and, perhaps, the state of their checking accounts.

The discussion of "what's master grade" is pretty much hopeless, I think. What's more to the point is learning what a given wood seller means by each grade and how consistent they are in their grading.
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
What Rick said. David too.

I've had 'Master' grade tops that were so floppy across the grain that I think I could have wrapped them into a circle. Staight, yup, even, of course, white, certainly, useful, gimme a break. I've also seen some wide grained water stained uneven wood that was acoustically the bee's knees. Customers, of course, find it easier to go by the looks, and tend to emphasise that aspect. It's too bad. Most of my regular customers are more interested in sound, and trust me to pick wood with that in mind. I only use the 'cosmetic' stuff when I'm building on spec, or for a few fussy folks who feel that's important.
Author:  npalen [ Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would you accept this tonewood as "Master"?
I think that one test of a vendor's honesty is when they tell you they are out of master grade because only about 1 in 100 or more is worthy of the grade.
Edit: That does look like some very nice wood, Dave, but I'm no expert on grading.
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