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| questions about bone http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=21752 |
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| Author: | markusrap [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | questions about bone |
im new to the forum, and fairly new to the art for guitar building. i recently replaced the nut and bridge to a cheap solidtop acoustic and was so pleased by the improvement of tone and sustain that i would like to replace all my nuts, bridges and maybe try to refret a guitar using bone. i dont, however, look forward to dropping another 5 bucks for a poorly cut blank from my local music store let alone replacing and experimenting with a lot of bone. i searched the forum for some bone info but im hoping some one can tell me the best way to cut alot of blanks from dog or butcher shop bone. i dont think a bandsaw is the way to go unless using a metal cutting blade. ( i ruined a older wood blade cutting the nut and bridge) i see small tile saws on craigslist alot. what is the traditional of making lots of blanks?are metal frets that much superior to bone or is it just the cost factor. if metal frets are better why dont we see more metal nuts and bridges? one more thing- how are the bone bridge pins made? a metal lathe? |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: questions about bone |
Well first frets as seldom if ever bone. I have seen a couple of museum pieces with bone frets but I have never seen a modern instrument with bone frets. Second I am guessing you are meaning saddles not bridges Saddles are commonly made from bone bridges hold the saddle in position and are commonly wood All that said it is possible to fabricate bone frets but seems point less to me. Most of the lutherie houses like LMI, Stewmac and most tonewood vendors sell both bleached and non-bleached bone nut and saddle blanks. Many of us make our own by cutting the blanks on bandsaw. There are lots of places to get cow bone. One of my favorites is a pet store. You do need to properly process the bone to remove all fatty oil, and bone merle |
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| Author: | markusrap [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: questions about bone |
can you explain the process of removing the fatty oil and bone merle? |
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: questions about bone |
Soak in white gasoline or lacquer thinner to leach oils out of the bone. Bandsaw use is standard, it leaves the most bone per cut, small kerf. I glue bone to a carrier board with hide glue and flatten in a drum sander. It's just way easier to purchase this stuff at a luthiers supply as most of us do. Get a dozen of each and you are set... processing bone is very useful because you run into situations which require fitting the bone to the guitar. Otherwise buy it.... |
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| Author: | LuthierSupplier [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: questions about bone |
Read this if you want to do it yourself the right way: http://www.bearmeadow.com/build/materials/html/bone-clean.html |
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| Author: | Dave Livermore [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: questions about bone |
I have an easier and much less involved method of preparing the bone I use. Go to a cattle farm. Let the farmer know what you're up to and that you need a bone that's been out in the elements for a year or two (or five or ten.) Cut it up and use it. The coyotes, coons, ants, flies and maggots did all the dirty work for you. Granted having the ranches of South Dakota as a resource is really helpful, I do like that the yucky stuff was all taken care of. Never had an issue with grease, fat, marrow, sinew or the like. You'll know if you have one that's been out there too long as it will break up when you saw it up. Otherwise density and workability are not much of an issue. Beware, if you're making your own blanks. It is stinky work. REALLY REALLY STINKY. No matter how well it has been processed, or how old it is, once you put it to the saw, make sure you are up wind, have a breeze at your back and are wearing a mask. Dave |
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| Author: | the Padma [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: questions about bone |
Ya, best to buy bone blanks. De greasing and bleaching is a long process. Bone stinks! Ever considered using brass for a nut? Ever considered using a "zero" fret and then the nut just becomes a sting spacer / holder and not a fulcrum for transferring vibration into the neck and hence the body? the padma |
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| Author: | MRS [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: questions about bone |
The main reason bone is not used for frets is because it would not last very long. It would groove very easy over a short time compared to the length that metal frets last. Even though its very hard it can still chip and crack very easy compared to metal . |
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| Author: | YJ John [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: questions about bone |
Thanks for the question fellow newbie, and for the info folks. I have a butcher willing to cut down blanks for me, now i know what to do from there. |
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| Author: | markusrap [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: questions about bone |
thanks for all the 411. i will be making my own bone, regardless of how involved it sounds. i think i might just buy a bimetal band saw blade for the task. i had thought that bone fret would not be as durable but im not intending to sell guitars or bone, i have a cheap classical that needs refretting and i thought i would use bone from saddle to nut. are the bridge pins made on micro lathes or does someone make there own a different way? |
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| Author: | Mark Groza [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: questions about bone |
You could make your own jig to make the taper on a homemade pin with a sharp blade mounted on a block of wood like beech at the correct angle. Sort of like a pencel sharpener.But i would prefer to turn it on a lathe first to get the right shape. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: questions about bone |
Ok let say you do want to fret with bone. The slots in your existing fretboard are likely .022"-.024" designed for the tang of modern fret wire with barbs. This means that you would have to do one of three things. One you would need make your bone frets to the shape of extruded fret wire. (A near impossible job to be consistent with bone). Two, you would need to thin the entire bone to .023" thick and use as a very thin bar fret (difficult and the bone is likely to crack and break anyway). Last option you would need to widen your fret sots for a thicker bone bar fret. (That risks adversely altering fret center to scale positions.) Personally I think you must be infatuated by the look you think you will get. I don’t say that to demean you, rather just giving an honest observation. Aesthetics are nice but this would not be a wise decision in my personal opinion. It is just way to much work, or way too much risk for really no good gain. |
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| Author: | Darryl Young [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: questions about bone |
markusrap, Since you asked, I would not want to use metal for a saddle as it is much denser than bone so would add weight to the bridge. The vibration of the strings is rocking the bridge so adding mass would likely cause you to loose sustain and may change the sound a little. I would not want to use bone for frets due to the bone wearing much faster than metal.....and the bone would be a tremendous amount of work......and I doubt you will have success cutting the tang thin enough to use.......and will likely break the bone that is made to teh correct dimension when you try to press it into teh fretboard......and I sure wouldn't try hammering it in. OTOH, replacing your currnet nut and saddle with bone may help your sound. Unless your frets are really worn, I wouldn't mess with them if it a cheap guitar that doesn't have that great of sound. You might be better off spending the same amount of time working and saving your money to buy a better guitar.......or buy a kit and build one yourself. If your industrious enough to put all that work into bone frets, I'll bet you could do a nice job on a guitar kit build. I'm building my first from a kit. |
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| Author: | markusrap [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: questions about bone |
i just dressed the frets, they are in good shape. i was just thinking about replacing them with bone. its just a cheap nylon stinged classical. milling the slots for rectangular shaped bone fret wouldnt be that big of a deal. i just cant see paying for 10 or so bone saddles to do it. i might do the fret job and play the guitar once and never play it again. i just wanted to know the process of making bone blanks so i can fill a box full of them for future use. i dont like the idea of paying someone else for what i can screw up myself. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: questions about bone |
One questions... are pig bones acceptable should cow bones be impossible to locate? I live in Taiwan and thanks to the hysteria about mad cows disease, imported beef is not allowed to contain bone material at all, so it is highly unlikely that any beef butcher in Taiwan will have access to cow bone. However pig is butchered and eaten quite frequently in Taiwan (Taiwan doesn't raise cows for food... they are mostly for milk, not enough land for grazing I guess) and I'm sure butchers wouldn't mind giving up pig bones... |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: questions about bone |
Bone isn't all the same. Most bone is imported. There are a few things you need to know about fretting. First off , is the neck using the frets for the action and relief? If this is the case you can't use bone. You will find that some times frets are used in compression fretting. I agree , when in doubt try it for yourself. You learn more from a failure than you do from success. john hall |
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