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Do I need to seal between Z-poxy and Em6000?
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Author:  Mark A Thorpe [ Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Do I need to seal between Z-poxy and Em6000?
I am getting ready to finish an acoustic with Em6000 , I have filled the pores with Z-poxy. Do I have to seal, or can I spray Em6000 right on top of the Z-poxy?
Author:  SniderMike [ Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do I need to seal between Z-poxy and Em6000?
I find it to be a good idea to seal an epoxy pore fill with shellac under pretty much any finish. Can't say I've used EM6000 though.
Author:  Mark A Thorpe [ Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do I need to seal between Z-poxy and Em6000?
Thanks for the fast reply Mike. Just to be on the safe side I think I will seal it.
Author:  woody b [ Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do I need to seal between Z-poxy and Em6000?
I always seal with shellac reguardless of filler or top coat. Shellac is pretty much the universal sealer. Be sure you either melt your own shellac from flakes or use wax free shellac. I use Zinsser seal coat. I used to spray if but lately I've been rubbing it on with a paper towel. 2 coats, sand with 400 grit and apply final finish. I'm sure there's a million other methods that work though.
Author:  Mark A Thorpe [ Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do I need to seal between Z-poxy and Em6000?
Thanks Woody b. I just mixed some schellac up last week from flakes so it's nice and fresh. I applied it the same way wiped it on with a rag, it should be ready for a second coat.
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do I need to seal between Z-poxy and Em6000?
Hey Mark,

Dan Erlewine gives great detailed instructions on waterborne finishing (with photos)
in the StewMac book "Guitar Finishing Step by Step" It's the best and most complete
book on finishing I've seen yet.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Books,_plans/Building_and_repair:_Finishing/Guitar_Finishing_Step-By-Step.html

An interesting point he makes in the book regarding a waterborne Coalescing type finish, is that 65 - 75% of the final
thickness of the finish should be the sealer. I assume you're spraying correct?
Author:  Parser [ Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do I need to seal between Z-poxy and Em6000?
Definitely. If you don't you'll basically be dumping a bunch of water into the guitar. When I first started messing around with target coatings USL/Emtech I did some test pieces...a couple pieces of scrap spruce, some hardwoods, etc. The first go around, I was anxious to see what the stuff looked like, so I let it rip right on some quickly sanded & unsealed parts. The spruce warped really badly. I've been using a couple sealer coats of shellac on top of the Z-poxy and that has seemed to work well.
Author:  Parser [ Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do I need to seal between Z-poxy and Em6000?
Here's another lesson I've learned the hard way....if you either a) wait more than 24 hours between coats or b) buff out a surface and then decide to spray some touch ups you should rough up the existing surfaces first with 220. Also, I'd recommend waiting at least a week after spraying to wet sand...and to use water sparingly. There is a good forum on targetcoatings.com and one of the guys on there uses mineral spirits with apparently good results.
Author:  Mark A Thorpe [ Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do I need to seal between Z-poxy and Em6000?
Bill Hodge wrote:
Hey Mark,

Dan Erlewine gives great detailed instructions on waterborne finishing (with photos)
in the StewMac book "Guitar Finishing Step by Step" It's the best and most complete
book on finishing I've seen yet.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Books,_plans/Building_and_repair:_Finishing/Guitar_Finishing_Step-By-Step.html

An interesting point he makes in the book regarding a waterborne Coalescing type finish, is that 65 - 75% of the final
thickness of the finish should be the sealer. I assume you're spraying correct?


I have that book that is a good book. I am spraying with an Apollo 3 stage hvlp, I had just planed on doing the build with the Em6000. I bought a gallon and wanted to give it a try. I have finished with Ktm9 before, but I did the grain fill with Stew-Mac waterbased grain filler with that so I didn't seal between the fill and the top coats. This was the first time I tried Z-poxy as the fill, so far that Em6000 sprays awesome I put on three coats, it levels out nice, I put it on a little heavy in one area and it didn't even run. So far so good knock on wood.

Parser wrote:
Definitely. If you don't you'll basically be dumping a bunch of water into the guitar. When I first started messing around with target coatings USL/Emtech I did some test pieces...a couple pieces of scrap spruce, some hardwoods, etc. The first go around, I was anxious to see what the stuff looked like, so I let it rip right on some quickly sanded & unsealed parts. The spruce warped really badly. I've been using a couple sealer coats of shellac on top of the Z-poxy and that has seemed to work well.


When I used the z-poxy I followed the tutorial by Hesh the last thing I did was mix the epoxy and thinned it 50%, then I wiped the entire guitar down to give it the wet look. That should seal all the wood correct? That's why I was curious about putting schellac over the epoxy. I did put on two coats of schellac over the Z-poxy before I started the top coats.


Thanks again for the info guys.
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do I need to seal between Z-poxy and Em6000?
Hey Mark

Keep me informed on how the finish works out for you. Maybe post some pics? I've got
an SJ that I'm prepping to put the finish on and I'm strongly considering the EM6000. :)
Author:  Bill Greene [ Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do I need to seal between Z-poxy and Em6000?
I just spoke with "Jeff" at Target coatings, and his opinion was that as long as there was no amine blush in the epoxy you are using as the pore fill/seal coat, then you will NOT have any issues with the EM6000 adhering directly to the epoxy. And if said that if you were not sure, to simply wipe the epoxy down with denatured alcohol prior to the leveling and there would be no issues.

I told him that a few people were more comfortable using shellac as a seal coat between the epoxy and the EM600, and he said that erring on the side of caution might be a good thing, but he did not feel it was needed at all...and that there was "very little" water that would be introduced to the wood, and that would evaporate rather quickly. He said if anything at there "might" be the tiniest bit of grain rise, but not much.

He was extremely polite and really knowledgeable.

Bill
Author:  Mark A Thorpe [ Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do I need to seal between Z-poxy and Em6000?
That's nice to know. Thanks Bill
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