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So what is your standard action height?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=21606		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  So what is your standard action height?
In the beginning (AD) laughing6-hehe I set my action pretty much to Martin spec, 6th string at first fret @.023” from bottom of string to top of fret thru 1st string at first fret @ .013” from bottom of string to top of fret and .090 to .070 at the twelfth fret respectively with .002”-.003” relief at the eight. That was my standard 25.4 scale action set-up for years.

This year I have been slowly playing with lowering my action. It appears that .019”-.010” with .085”-.065” with .002-.003 relief is working fine for me. Just curious to what everyone else is setting up at

I guess I should mention this is for .054-.012 strings
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
Hey good question Michael. I've often wondered what other's set up to.

I still set up to basic martin specs (as you've already noted) but have gone lower based on player preferences. All may guitars to date (along with set up's for others) are close to home so I usually leave it at spec (on new guitars) for a month or so to allow the player to get a feel for the guitar in general and than ask them to bring it back and I set it up more to their preference.

Now, is that second setup one you use for both finger picking and flat picking? That's getting into the 'zonging' range for a flat picker.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
Rod True wrote:

Now, is that second setup one you use for both finger picking and flat picking? That's getting into the 'zonging' range for a flat picker.


Well it first came about while setting up for a Travis picker that wanted me to take the action as low as reasonably possible. I have been playing one of mine set up like this for a while and having no buzz issues due to flat pick attack so it is my plan to make this my standard.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
Rod True wrote:
Hey good question Michael. I've often wondered what other's set up to.

I still set up to basic martin specs (as you've already noted) but have gone lower based on player preferences. All may guitars to date (along with set up's for others) are close to home so I usually leave it at spec (on new guitars) for a month or so to allow the player to get a feel for the guitar in general and than ask them to bring it back and I set it up more to their preference.

Now, is that second setup one you use for both finger picking and flat picking? That's getting into the 'zonging' range for a flat picker.


I find most finger pickers like a tad higher action for tone. but like I said I have been playing my SJ set up to the new specs for a bit now playing fingerstyle and flatpicking and I like it.
Author:  TonyKarol [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
.. I set my guitars to 95/75 thou, low/high, which I find ideal for fingerstyle - much more and I cant play higher barred sequences .. but I find for harder pickers, thats a touch low on the low E, it will rattle some when the low G note is whacked, and thats with more relief than you have MP (I am around 6-8 thou)
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
TonyKarol wrote:
.. I set my guitars to 95/75 thou, low/high, which I find ideal for fingerstyle - much more and I cant play higher barred sequences .. but I find for harder pickers, thats a touch low on the low E, it will rattle some when the low G note is whacked, and thats with more relief than you have MP (I am around 6-8 thou)


I have to ask what is your height at the 1st?
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
com-on boys and girls! we all do this. Inquiring minds want to know wher you are setting up at
Author:  Mark Groza [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
I set mine at .016 base side and .013 treble side at first fret.I use 11 for strings.I like my action low.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
Mark thanks but that is the first fret what is the 12th and releif?
Author:  Mark Groza [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
.093 and .090 at the 12th. And relief at six is .067 and .064
Author:  ChuckB [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
I set first fret clearances from .020 low E down to .010 high E. Using .005 relief, I set 12th fret action (clearance) at 5.5/64 low E to 4.5/64 high E. I like custom lights, .011 to .052.

Chuck
Author:  truckjohn [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
Well.... since you asked....
I am an *Almost* rank amateur...
I will not claim to have invented anything in particular.... but I am good at Measuring and sanding.... (I have done plenty of tool and die work through the "Day Job")

That said, I copy the setups listed here.
http://www.bryankimsey.com/setup/index.htm
and
http://www.bryankimsey.com/setup/neck_relief_1.htm

He says these are basically "Martin" setups, but I really like the way they sound.

Being the "Nerdy engineer" sort, I did an Autocad drawing -- and the setups listed on Bryan's site equate to carefully matching the Fingerboard Radius to the Saddle radius, then slightly tapering the saddle shorter on the Treble side..... Essentially, it is independent of fingerboard radius -- you just gotta be very careful about matching the radius.... which is what the Feeler gage checks on each string accomplish.

Basically, no one else seems to list out individual string heights anywhere.... Not sure if that is because no one measures them all or what...

I have done about 20 setups on my 2 guitars (Fooling around, re-topping, neck sets, fret levelling, trying out different string profiles, etc...) So far, I really like his "Standard" setup the best on both the nut and saddle.

I actually check each string with a set of pin gages, and can get them to within about +/- 0.002".

and I have found that if you get them to +/- 0.005" at the 12th -- it sounds very nice.... If one string is 0.010" higher or lower out of order... it sounds weird and unbalanced -- like it goes "Clang" when you strum or it feels like the pick is catching somewhere.

Neck relief -- as low as possible. 0.002-0.006"

So...

My #1 guitar running Martin Medium 80/20 strings has:
Nut, 1st fret:
E 0.022"
A 0.020"
D 0.018"
G 0.018"
B 0.018"
e 0.016"

Saddle, 12th fret:
E 0.104"
A 0.100"
D 0.096"
G 0.090"
B 0.084"
e 0.079"

Many folks have played this guitar, and the general comment is that the action is "Standard" but good.

Hope this adds 1 more data point for you.

John
Author:  Jim Watts [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
3/32 to a 1/16 at the 12th
and .012 low E thru G and .009 B & E
String gauge .053 - .012
Author:  L. Presnall [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
I have the Taylor spec. sheet on my shop wall...that's where I start unless the customer wants something different...
Author:  DannyV [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
And what about nylon string? That's all I've built and I kinda bumbled through it. Seems to work OK. Setting up my first steel string is the next order of business so this is great timing. What do you like to use for a measuring devise?

Enjoy The Day,
Danny
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
Mark Groza wrote:
.093 and .090 at the 12th. And relief at six is .067 and .064


I am guessing your clearance is .067-.064 at the sixth, not the amount of relief
Author:  Rod True [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
DannyV wrote:
And what about nylon string? That's all I've built and I kinda bumbled through it. Seems to work OK. Setting up my first steel string is the next order of business so this is great timing. What do you like to use for a measuring devise?

Enjoy The Day,
Danny


Feeler gauges
Author:  TonyKarol [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
Sorry Michael .. I dont measure at the nut ... press down between 2 and 3 and look at the first fret 'bounce'. Top 2 strings almost none, progressing to the bottom strings - a bit ... it likely measures out somewhere around 18-13 low-high, as it cant really go down much more. The lowest I had ever measured way back was Bob Bennett's Ryan - 16-11 low high at the 1st.
Author:  npalen [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
.010" to .015" at the 1st, .060 to .070 at the 12th and relief at about .005" with .013-.054 strings.
Us "archies" have the luxury of adjusting action "on the go". :D
Nelson Palen
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
I like to strive for as close as I can to 1/16" (.0625) from the bottom of the High E (#1) to the crown of the 12th fret.
and 3/32" (.09375) to the bottom of the Low E (#6) to the crown of the 12th fret.
This is the way I learned it and it's worked quite well for me thus far. :D

That said however, I've also learned that I should never be unteachable and always ready to learn more because I can't
live long enough to know all there is to know in the art of fine craftsmanship.

Thus, I'm here to learn from those who know and enjoy the show! Eat Drink
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
Bill Hodge wrote:
I like to strive for as close as I can to 1/16" (.0625) from the bottom of the High E (#1) to the crown of the 12th fret.
and 3/32" (.09375) to the bottom of the Low E (#6) to the crown of the 12th fret.
This is the way I learned it and it's worked quite well for me thus far. :D

That said however, I've also learned that I should never be unteachable and always ready to learn more because I can't
live long enough to know all there is to know in the art of fine craftsmanship.

Thus, I'm here to learn from those who know and enjoy the show! Eat Drink


Something I notice going on here is that many of those that have responded have left out one part of the equation or another.

Giving a clearance height at only the 12th by its self is of little use because you can slot the nut to any depth and achieve a given clearance height at the 12th. This tells almost nothing about the action from one end to the other.

To define a plane requires a minimum of 2 known point. There are infinite planes that can intersect one point.

In lutherie what we do we attempt to define the terminal point at each end of the action plane (nut slot depth and bridge crown) by setting two intermediate points on an action plane. You cant get there by setting just one

My point is that giving a clearance at on given location conveys almost no information at all. To define one’s action plane required at the very lest two defined clearance heights, or nut slot clearance and or bridge crown height above fret crown. The later two are difficult to measure in the real world so we measure string/fret clearance at the front end of the fretboard and at the mid node point of the fretboard. This reasonably defines the action plane. But you can’t convey the needed information with just one location.

Not meaning to fuss at you guys but I am hoping to learn something about how each of us set our action height in this discussion. and I can't seem to get there fome here laughing6-hehe
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
Hey Michael,

When you're right, you're seldom wrong :lol:

I guess I better learn to proof read my posts duh
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
I don't measure at the nut either. Set up there exactly like Tony. For a guitar destined for a store usually about .005 relief, and 2/32-3/32 at the 12th out of the gate (or .093/.070 ballpark). Here's a question. How long does everyone wait after string-up to do a final setup?
Terry
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
Bill Hodge wrote:
Hey Michael,

When you're right, you're seldom wrong :lol:

I guess I better learn to proof read my posts duh


was not getting on to anyone :D Just findinding it hard to ream information :D
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So what is your standard action height?
Terence Kennedy wrote:
I don't measure at the nut either. Set up there exactly like Tony. For a guitar destined for a store usually about .005 relief, and 2/32-3/32 at the 12th out of the gate (or .093/.070 ballpark). Here's a question. How long does everyone wait after string-up to do a final setup?
Terry


Great question [clap]

I like to wait a minimum of 2 weeks on guitars being shipped long distance from me. I like Rod's idea of setting it higher than ideal for a few moths and then having the client come in to have it adjust ed after settel in. However most of my clients are hundreds of miles away from me.
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