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Target EM6000 revisited
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=21547		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Philip Perdue [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Target EM6000 revisited
I know that several of you have been trying out the Target Coatings EM6000 water-based lacquer and I was wondering if you could update your experience and satisfaction of the product. I am at a point where I need to purchase more finishing product. It sure seems user friendly and the results so far have been promising. Originally, my plans included French polishing but my practice boards have not all been satisfactory and as a result I’m looking another direction. In the past I have used Tru-oil with excellent results so I have a backup plan if needed.

Does anyone have a greater understanding of the product? Target Coatings lists Stew Mac as one of their distributers. Is the ColorTone Water base Guitar Lacquer the same product? The MSD reads almost identical for both products and both MSD’s have Target Coatings listed. The only difference on the MSD sheet is:
ColorTone -
Regulatory VOC Content is 177 Grams/Liter
Actual VOC Content is 62 Grams/Liter
Target EM6000 –
VOC Content: 31 Grams /Litre (only one VOC listing)
Both products have 30% Acrylic Copolymer Resin with the EM6000 has a CAS number
And the ColorTone has no CAS number but says Proprietary. Frankly, I don’t know what any of it really means other than I can clean with water and you don’t expect it to explode.

Any updates would be nice. I just need something that will protect a guitar and whose ease of use will match my skills and tools. :oops:

Thank You,

Philip
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
Don't know if it's the same product but I just ordered mine directly from Target. The EM6000 was on sale. Don't know if it still is. Unfortunately, I haven't used it yet.
Author:  Rod True [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
From what I've heard, the Color tone is being switched to the new EM6000 from Target. It use to be the Oxford USL (which is the MSDS you noted), but target has/is making the switch.

I'm very happy with my first use of the EM6000. I sprayed it with a cheap-o touch up gun (I'm going to get a better gun though) and before my gun crapped out on me, I got 9 great coats on, very level (the self leveling of the product is excellent). I let it cure for 2 weeks than level sanded it. Sanding was very easy and the finish leveled very well. I wanted to spray on another 3-5 coats as there were still a few pores not totally filled (pin holes really) but my gun went for the crapper and I only got spatter, not so bad if spraying a ceiling but not good on a guitar.

Anyway, I got another 3 coats (bad coats mind you) on and let that cure for 4 days and than I sanded and buffed.

It buffed up to a very high gloss all by hand. It was pretty easy really. I've also heard that you can apply it with a foam brush with good success.

I'll be getting the guitar back in 2 weeks for the final setup after the initial break in period so I'll take some pictures of it than.

Philip, get it from the Target site, buy a quart and give it a try. It's really easy to use, very forgiving, can go over shellac, self levels really well, which makes brushing it on appealing, cures ready to level and buff within 7 days and can polish up to a high gloss. What's not to like?
Author:  James Orr [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
I'm looking forward to those pictures, Rod.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
As far as brushing goes, I spoke to the folks at Target (very nice and helpful by the way) and they recommended a Taklon type artist brush. I ended up getting one of these in the 2" size - at that price I hope it works great and lasts forever.
http://www.dickblick.com/products/grumbacher-goldenedge-short-handle-wash-series-4624/
I also got the retarder, sealer/shellac and filler/glaze from Target. I've done plenty of spraying, even some commercial, but I don't have room to spray in the shop and want to do my finishing there if I can. I like brushing. I know I may end up eating these words but I'm going to try it anyway. If I end up building guitars for other folks and need to speed up the process I'll probably send them to Joe.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
This stuff is INCREDIBLEY forgiving. I have not tried a brush, but I would not be afraid of it. Whenever you apply another coat, it immediately melts into the previous coat. And it drys within an hour. Get a drip? Sand that down, apply another coat. I have pore filled with CA afterwards and that works well to.

What is not known is how it will hold up or feel (over time) in the neck area. So the jury is out. But it is wonderfully clear. And, not toxic (for you or the environment) but still wear a mask.

Thank you Rod for mentioning this product.

Mike
Author:  woody b [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
Mike O'Melia wrote:
......................................................................................................................... I have pore filled with CA afterwards and that works well to.............................


Wow. I've never considered that. I seal with 2 coats of shellac (actually zinsser seal coat), fill with CA and then 2 more coats of shellac. Then finish with EM6000. What do you use for sealer, and at what point do you pore fill?
I use a penetrating oil finish on my necks.
Author:  Andy Birko [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
So to those of you who've used both, I've got about a half gallon of USL left in the basement, more than enough to finish my next instrument. Is the EM6000 so much better that I should ditch what I have (probably around $20 worth) for the new stuff or is it simply that I'll spend a bit more time getting a good finish with the old stuff?
Author:  Joe Sustaire [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
Hey Andy,

I had the same question as I recently bought a gallon of the Ultima, haven't even tried it yet, and all of a sudden the EM6000 was all the rage. Tim Metcalf over at the luthier community who loves the new stuff told me that I could use the ultima for the early fill coats and them finish with the EM6000. They are perfectly compatible and that's what he's doing to use up his old product.

There is also a thread on the Target Coatings site with some good info for guitar application.
http://www.targetcoatings.com/forum/vie ... php?t=1244

Hope this helps,
Joe
Author:  Andy Birko [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
I had thought about that except for one little fly in the finish, or at least a potential fly: with the cure time of EM6000 being so much quicker than USL, will there be any issues buffing out or do you just wait the full 4 weeks before leveling and buffing?
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
woody b wrote:
Mike O'Melia wrote:
......................................................................................................................... I have pore filled with CA afterwards and that works well to.............................


Wow. I've never considered that. I seal with 2 coats of shellac (actually zinsser seal coat), fill with CA and then 2 more coats of shellac. Then finish with EM6000. What do you use for sealer, and at what point do you pore fill?
I use a penetrating oil finish on my necks.


I did not mean to imply major pore filling... just the ones I missed durring the initial pore fill with expoxy, etc. After a couple of days, the lacquer will "pull back" a bit and any missed pores will be obvious. I guess I could "dab" on some of the lacquer, but its low viscosity has dissueded me so far. Also, I am a novice, so do not do anything I did without checking it with the pros here. I am sorry I mentioned it because of my low experience level. (it did work for me however)

Mike
Author:  woody b [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
Don't be sorry you mentioned it. I used to pore fill with CA after 1 coat of shellac but I've noticed it's easier after 2 or 3 coats. I usually have a few imperfections to fix after my first day of finish coats.
Author:  Rob Warren [ Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
So far everybody who has played the electric I did with EM6000 absolutely loves the feel of this stuff. I'm really happy with it. I like it better than my Tru-oil necks, but that's just one mans opinion.

As far as brushing goes, I don't think the foam brush is the way to go with this product. As Target recommended, I purchased a good brush right from them. The key seems to be getting one with super fine bristles. I also found that you need to hold the brush almost perpendicular to the surface, and with a light touch, use only the very tips of the bristles. Any other brushing method seemed to make bubbles for me.

For brushing, I mixed @ 20% retarder by weight.

You can also tint with trans- tint, the retarded product, or use pigments, such as Stew Mac's colortone pigments, or Mixol pigments for an opaque color, however, you DON"T need to use the retarder with the pigments.

I've got 4 more projects in the works, and can't wait to try this on the 2 acoustics.

Now, if only I can find someone to thickness this Zebrawood set I've got... It doesn't really cooperate with the hand plane...
Author:  SteveSmith [ Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
Rob, what size brush do you use? Unfortunately, Target was no longer selling the brushes when I ordered from them. The Taklon type artist brush I got does have very fine bristles. It's a 2", I hope its not too wide.
Author:  Rob Warren [ Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
I used 1 1/2", but 2" should be fine
Author:  Jojobilou [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
Hi everybody !

I'd like to test these finish, but the shipping costs are prohibitives to France...

Does anyone knows a european dealer for these product ?

Thanks by adance guys... :)

Best Regards,

Jojo
Author:  Ken C [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Target EM6000 revisited
I purchased a gallon of the stuff a couple of months ago. I was going to get more USL, but Jeff talked me into trying the EM6000. My garage is almost getting warm enough to spray here in Michigan. By the time it does, I should have two guitars to spray. I'll be happy to share my experience then, but I am probably a month or more away.

Ken
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