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Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=21426		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  senunkan [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
I tried both ways of cutting the binding rebate using a laminate trimmer and also using handtools only: the chisel and purfling cutter.
Although using the trimmer was much faster than using hand tools, I found that it's a great learning experience to use hand tools only to cut the rebate.
Just that session alone, my understanding of how to use the chisel improves.


I made the purfling cutter using some scrap bass wood, after seeing ideas from Waddy's build and the commercial available cuttings.
It's quite roughly made but it sure works just fine.

Here are some pics.
Author:  senunkan [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Some more pics

I made the purfling cutter from some scrap basswood which I had.
Glue the various pieces together using PVA.
Surprisingly though its poorly made, it worked quite well.

The blade is a skewed chisel.
I remove the wooden handle to extract the blade.
It is held in place by a hex bolt and an embedded T-nut within the main body of the cutter.
The bottom part the fence is held to the main body using a winged nut and a hex-bolt.

Thanks for the attention.
Author:  Colin S [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Well done, I often cut the binding and purfling channel by hand, I find that I can usually do it just as quickly as setting up the laminate trimmer. Though I usually use a trimmer in a Williams rig now, like knowing how to bend sides on a pipe, it's a good skill to have in your armoury.

Colin
Author:  StevenWheeler [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Sen,

Your purfling cutter is beautiful. I judge tools on function. I have some tools and jigs that other wood workers have laughed out loud at until they saw the results.
I've been thinking of cutting the channels by hand. Maybe on the next one.

Steve
Author:  jordan aceto [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Nice tool, the Waddygramil!
Author:  David Newton [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
I love anything that makes less noise, so I love this.
Thanks, Senunkan
Author:  walnut47 [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Very nice!!! I appreciate my bandsaw, but I'm always interested in ways to avoid turning on some noisy machine. Thanks,
Walter
( A Semi-Neander)
Author:  cphanna [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Sen, there is nothing wrong with a pure hand tool, and yours is beautifully effective. You are obviously using it with a craftsman's touch--as many generations of luthiers used their hand tools in earlier times. You already know that labor-intensive hand tools are not generally used in production shops where work must be completed in less time, and with less effort.
But I salute you for making a tool that works very well in your own production schedule, and I also salute you for the level of your skill when using this tool. I own many power tools, but I often reach for a pure hand tool--because I am not on a production schedule, and I find hand tools very satisfying to use. The reasons: Less noise. Less dust. Fewer chips. More work, but much more satisfaction. I'm sure you understand. My compliments to you.
Patrick
Author:  radsboy [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Would anyone care to comment on technique of doing the cutting by hand? That is, do you make short strokes going over areas multiple times, or long continuous strokes? How about method of determining how to set up the tool's depth for the top/back cuts vs. side cuts?

thanks,

David
Author:  Joe Sabin [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
David, it depends on the grain of the wood. A nice long straight grained wood allows long strokes. A complex grain will have you doing shorter strokes with more pressure and more attention paid to the potential movement of the cutting edge.

I too like using hand tools to do tasks, where I've acquired the skills to get the job done as well as with a power tool. Less dust, less noise and I do enjoy the touch of wood against a sharp cutting edge. I agree this is a good looking tool.

I've got a question, why did you call it a rebate?
[quote="radsboy"]Would anyone care to comment on technique of doing the cutting by hand? That is, do you make short strokes going over areas multiple times, or long continuous strokes? How about method of determining how to set up the tool's depth for the top/back cuts vs. side cuts?

thanks,

David[/quote]
Author:  radsboy [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Coco:

Thanks - yeah that makes sense - just yesterday I was talking to a couple of luthiers at Acoustic Artisans in Portland, Maine and they made the point that an important woodworking skill is knowing which direction to work in relation to grain -

I assume you are not asking me about the use of the word rebate -

I too like the design and use of Sen's tool! I may try to make a similar one -

Another question: Once this cutting and chiseling is done, what sanding or smoothing is to be done before fitting and gluing on the binding/purfling?

David
Author:  JimWomack [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Joe Sabin wrote:
I've got a question, why did you call it a rebate?

Rabbet and rebate mean the same thing. I think rebate is the more common expression across the pond.
Author:  senunkan [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Thanks to all for your kind words, it really encouraged me a lot.
I kind of like to use hand tool more as I am working on the guitar at my Mum's apartment.
So I prefer to have less noise if possible.
Also I am just a beginner wood worker, so I would like acquire some woodworking experience as I go along.
This is just my first guitar and I have been working on it for the past 2 years learning things as I go along.
I really am very grateful to OLF community where I picked up most of the knowledge that I required.
Thanks to all!


I also don't know if the rebate is correct word to use?
I thought I read it somewhere, please correct me if I use the wrong word.

I haven't thought about how to straighten the cut edges, right now it is quite jagged due to my poor chiseling skill.
I think I will use some sandpaper or scraper to sand/scrape it straight.
For the chiseling part, I sometimes reversed the bevel edge (facing down) and use it like a scoop, especially at the waist area.
Most of the time I just score it and then chisel it and repeat the process until I get the correct depth.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
My experience with the hand cutter, was that the beveled edge does fine in soft wood, but is not so good in hard woods, as it wants to follow the grain. The solution to that is to make a scraper type cutter.
Attachment:
P1000619 (Large).JPG
Attachment:
P1000621 (Large).JPG
Attachment:
P1000624Cust.JPG


With this cutter, and using light strokes to start with, establishing a groove, then more strokes over the same areas, until you get to full depth. The result was a very straight and even edge on the binding ledge and the purfling inside edge. I took the waste out with a chisel.
Attachment:
P1000612 (Large).JPG


To get a bit of a burr on the scraper front edge, I ground the 45* angle last, and did not remove the burr that formed when grinding. It worked very well. You just cant dig too deep in one stroke. I believe I learned this either from Shawn or Dave LaPlante, as it is a method that Romanillos suggested to them.
Author:  Joe Sustaire [ Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Good post Sen! It's nice to remember simpler ways of doing things.
And thank you Waddy for your scrapper blade tips!

I need to make and try one of these,
Joe
Author:  radsboy [ Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Is anyone using the Schneider Gramil offered by LMI? (pp. 112 Cat 87). Does that work as well as these hand made tools? Any advantages/disadvantages?

thanks,

David
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
I'm pretty sure Alex uses a Gramil, and is fairly happy with it. I believe it has a pair of blades that can be set to cut parallel lines.

My reason for making something, was that I was still trying to learn to use hand tools, and making the tool gave me some practice that I sorely needed.
Author:  Colin S [ Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Th Schneider Gramil, is the single bladed one that LMI sells, the double bladed gramil is the old style violin purfling cutter, which is sometimes sold as a Sloan type, though it has been around for literally centuries. I use both types, but for general use prefer the Schneider. I always use one anyway to define the prfling/binding cut on the top wood, especially on cedar and redwood where it stops tear out.

Colin
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Yes I use this tool and really like it. It is very sturdy and well built. The blade edge sharpens easily and lasts long. Adjustments are made with an Allen key. American size, when i lose it (and it happens often in the mess here) i'm in big trouble :)

I'd love to have two gramils because it is rather annoying to keep inverting the blade bevel. With two i would work faster (doh)

It doesn't have two blades, that is the Sloane gramil sold by SM.

I am also using the gramil to scribe the center of neck pieces, and I also use it to help cutting the slots in slotted headstocks. I don't have a drillpress so this trick helps me a good deal. First I make sure the head is tapered to shape and the sides are square to the face, and then use the sides to scribe and then cut deeper and deeper, from both sides. Kind of weird but works for me. More precise than chisels and files only.

One 1/2 selfmade tool is a circle cutter using the gramil arm and a woodenblock with a pin.
Author:  Joe Sabin [ Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
.
Author:  Joe Sabin [ Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
[quote="Joe Sabin"].[/quote]
Oops, not sure what I did here. I did mean to say something last night. Don't know how I wiped it all out.

I was just making a funny comment on the difference in word use, like bespoke guitar...where we in the US say custom guitar...anyway, it's much less funny as just a dot I suppose. idunno
Author:  senunkan [ Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Like what Waddy has mentioned, I did notice that the cutter has a tendency to follow the grain.
I thought the blade that I used wasn't sharp enough.
Hmm, now I know it's because of the bevel-edge shape.
I might find have to find another blade instead.
Waddy I think you mentioned you made your blade from a jig saw blade.
How do you do make your burr edge?
When you grind the 45 degree the burr formed will be at the 2 outer edges right?

Alex, looks to me the gramil blade is also bevel edged?
Does it have the same tendency to follow the grain from your experience?
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a binding rebate by hand tools
Sen, I ground and honed the flat face first, then the 45* angle last. Honing the 45 leaves a small burr on the flat face. It works fine as the scraping burr. Even if there is no burr, it will work fine, with just a finely honed angle.
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