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Side Purfling Lines
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Author:  Steve Sollod [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Side Purfling Lines
I had not intended to put in side purfling lines but slipage of my router has changed my plans. gaah I'm binding a koa OM venetian cutaway and had intended to use tortise binging. This was going to be an easy job... pizza For the first time I used a Ribbecke style jig. I hate it! pfft I have no feeling of what I'm doing. I prefer the control of the hand held jig I have...

Anyway... My new channel (or the rest of my new channel) is approximately 0.300". So, I have room for 0.250" binding and 0.060" purfling. I have some 0.250" rosewood binding and I have some 0.060" B/W/B (fiber) purfling.

Do I need to bend the purfling before I try to use it? What's the best way to do this?

Maybe the slippage of my router will actually result in a nicer build - with side purfling... If I don't bugger it up.

Thanks,
Steve
Author:  stan thomison [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
I bend it. I glue it to the binding and then cut it to width and bend it with rest of binding and top/back purf. Can cut it to width and secure it to binding and bend it also. If do that, make sure tape it well or can twist on you and pain to lay it in channel or can break. I also use plastic as a side purf also. Easier and just glue it in.
Author:  Dave Higham [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
I usually hesitate to answer this sort of query as there are much more experienced people than me around, but, as I've just done some side purfling I'll tell you what I did. Mine is just a single white veneer line and obviously a strip of veneer .024" thick and .080" wide doesn't want to bend the 'hard' way!

So, I cut 2 strips of walnut 1/4" x 0.80" (because I had some and it bends easily) and sandwiched them either side of my 4 strips of veneer. I used masking tape and taped about every 3". I then bent the sandwich in the side bender as per the sides.

A word of advice based on what happened. In the area which will be the waist (the tightest bend), tape the sandwich continually and as tightly as you can. I'd also use a reinforced tape which won't stretch. The reason being that, as the veneer doesn't want to bend 'sideways', it will tend to crinkle. Mine did, a little, but when I installed it I managed to clamp it down hard and it hardly shows. Hope this helps.

Edit: Stan got in before me. Obviously if using wood binding you do it Stan's way, but I was using tortise too so I did it as above. I have to say though, that when, for another instrument, I glued my veneer to the binding, it came unglued in the bender. Didn't matter, as I glued them in place together with CA and it worked fine.
Author:  LanceK [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
I use the b/w/b/ fiber purfling from LMI all the time, I never prebend it. It bends willingly around even cutaways.

I use both the 10.10.10 and the 10.20.10
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
I like the fiber also (you can also get it from RC ToneWoods)

I glue it to the binding first. I just apply glue to the binding, then lay it down on the fiber. Side note: who ever you order the fiber from, insist that they ship it flat. Once it is rolled, it is a bear to reflatten. Put some weight on it and let it dry (an hour does it). With a razor, trim it free. Then on to the next layer (color).

After all of this, I use a finger plane to trim back to wood. Then bend in the fox bender. Like Hesh said, tape a number of them together. THEN I cut the channels (not before)

Mike
Author:  jordan aceto [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
I use BWB fiber side purflings with plastic bindings pretty often, and they go around the majority of the guitar just fine without pre-bending. I do have to pre-bend when going around a tight cutaway.

In the tighter areas like the waist i dampen the purfs with a sponge, it helps them to bend without breaking.

For tight, rounded cutaways, it is pretty tricky. You need to heat up the purfs, but you cant because the plastic will melt or burst into flames. Sometimes i cut away the side purfs in the cutaway area, then i bend a new piece of side purfling material, sideways, so that it will go around the cutaway without forcing/breaking. Then i scab the new piece of side purfling in with a long scarf joint. It is a pain, but results can be good if you are willing to toss pieces untill it is perfect. A soft rounded cutaway might be no problem, i dont know what yours looks like.

A much easier suggestion, is to use BWB or WBW plastic side purflings, you wont have any problem bending those.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
I usually attach the fiber stuff to the binding first with superglue then tape the pieces together and bend. I attach it with office binder clips and hit the spaces between the clips with thin CA to tack it down, then move the clips and flood the rest. Even it up in the thickness sander. How many of you wound up with three bass and one treble piece (or some other uneven number) the first time? I did. Tape the pieces for bending so the purfling sides face each other for each side. Also, if you have your end graft in already match the purfling width there so you can miter. Crossing the T with purfling always looks a little strange to me. Doing it free would sure be easier for miters, I'll try that next time, probably with plastic. Good tips here.
Terry
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
I prebend fiber with my hands and tack it into the bottom of the binding rabbet with CA before installing the binding. The waist or a soft cutaway is around the limit of this without starting to break it.
Author:  Brad T [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
I use the BW fiber purfs from LMI all the time, for the side purflings, so here is yet another way to do it. You can bend the fiber using just your hands. Try it; you will be surprised at how tight you can get the radius before it breaks, just take your time and work it tighter and tighter until you get what you want.

What I do is get it started, along with the pre-bent bindings at the tail. I glue all my purfs/binding on at the same time. No need to bend the BWB to begin with. Sometimes it will go around the lower bout with no bending needed. I bend mine when I get to the waist, and just use my fingers to get it bent where it needs to be. Also when getting to the upper bout. If not pre-bent, the stuff wants to roll onto its side so I bend it same as I did at the waist. None have came loose as of date, and I have used tightbond, superglue, and Duco; depending on the binding.

Taping the stuff together and heating, prebending always was a pita and the stuff wanted to stick together, delaminate, and it was a pain to remove the tape after it got hot.

Just another way of doing it!
Author:  Brock Poling [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
Howard Klepper wrote:
I prebend fiber with my hands and tack it into the bottom of the binding rabbet with CA before installing the binding. The waist or a soft cutaway is around the limit of this without starting to break it.


That is how I do it too.

I do it this way so I can get the miters at the end graft to fit right. If you try this and need a way to get the purfling to lay down in the bottom of the channel tight before you CA it, exacto blades make good clamps. I just keep all my used ones for exactly this purpose.
Author:  LanceK [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
Brock Poling wrote:
Howard Klepper wrote:
I prebend fiber with my hands and tack it into the bottom of the binding rabbet with CA before installing the binding. The waist or a soft cutaway is around the limit of this without starting to break it.


That is how I do it too.

I do it this way so I can get the miters at the end graft to fit right. If you try this and need a way to get the purfling to lay down in the bottom of the channel tight before you CA it, exacto blades make good clamps. I just keep all my used ones for exactly this purpose.


I also (start) the purfs this way, I tack them at the miter but that is all. After that I glue the top and side purflings and bindings all at the same time, like Brad does..
Author:  Steve Sollod [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
Thanks for the replies guys.

Since I had the accident with the router and made my channel wider than I had intended, I have a few ways I can go:

- Use some 0.250" rosewood binding and 0.060" B/W/B purfling I already have and bend it to fit the cutaway - certainly more difficult than using plastic.

- Buy the 0.250" tortise binding from LMI (I bought the original 0.0625" tortise from Martin) and get plastic purfling from either Martin or LMI. (LMI's has 0.0250" plastic B/W/B binding but I'd have to cut it to the 0.050" to complete the 0.300" channel I now will have). [LMI charges an addition $20 shipping for the tortise - curiously, Martin does not.]

If I didn't have to bend it for the cutaway, I'd probably lean towards the wood binding, but frankly I'm scared to try to bend both the binding and the purf. I haven't had enough experience yet. - I know there is no time like the present.

Sorry for the rambling. :roll:
Author:  Ken C [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
For those of you who are attaching thin wood perflings to bindings prior to bending, what are you using for glue? Seems the heat and steam from the bender could delaminate the perfling and binding.
Author:  Brad T [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
Is that supposed to be .625" where you wrote .0625? If so, could you split that binding down the middle and still have .250"? You'd come out with .312" minus the saw kerf.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
Ken C wrote:
For those of you who are attaching thin wood perflings to bindings prior to bending, what are you using for glue? Seems the heat and steam from the bender could delaminate the perfling and binding.


I have used titebond and CA, both seem to work fine, without delaminating in the bender. Bending bindings in a side bender usually goes quick and easy, they just dont offer much resistance when they are in the .060" - .080" range. I think because they bend fast and easy, you can ease off on the heat and time in the bender, which reduces the risk of delamination.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
Steve Sollod wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys.

Since I had the accident with the router and made my channel wider than I had intended, I have a few ways I can go:

- Use some 0.250" rosewood binding and 0.060" B/W/B purfling I already have and bend it to fit the cutaway - certainly more difficult than using plastic.

- Buy the 0.250" tortise binding from LMI (I bought the original 0.0625" tortise from Martin) and get plastic purfling from either Martin or LMI. (LMI's has 0.0250" plastic B/W/B binding but I'd have to cut it to the 0.050" to complete the 0.300" channel I now will have). [LMI charges an addition $20 shipping for the tortise - curiously, Martin does not.]

If I didn't have to bend it for the cutaway, I'd probably lean towards the wood binding, but frankly I'm scared to try to bend both the binding and the purf. I haven't had enough experience yet. - I know there is no time like the present.

Sorry for the rambling. :roll:


If you like the look of plastic bindings(i do), tortoise with WBW plastic would look great and be the easiest to get a nice result with. I like the stewmac binding laminator for glueing plastic bindings/side purfs together.
Author:  Steve Sollod [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
Thanks guys - a lot of good information here... That's why I love this place...
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
jordan aceto wrote:
Steve Sollod wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys.

Since I had the accident with the router and made my channel wider than I had intended, I have a few ways I can go:

- Use some 0.250" rosewood binding and 0.060" B/W/B purfling I already have and bend it to fit the cutaway - certainly more difficult than using plastic.

- Buy the 0.250" tortise binding from LMI (I bought the original 0.0625" tortise from Martin) and get plastic purfling from either Martin or LMI. (LMI's has 0.0250" plastic B/W/B binding but I'd have to cut it to the 0.050" to complete the 0.300" channel I now will have). [LMI charges an addition $20 shipping for the tortise - curiously, Martin does not.]

If I didn't have to bend it for the cutaway, I'd probably lean towards the wood binding, but frankly I'm scared to try to bend both the binding and the purf. I haven't had enough experience yet. - I know there is no time like the present.

Sorry for the rambling. :roll:


If you like the look of plastic bindings(i do), tortoise with WBW plastic would look great and be the easiest to get a nice result with. I like the stewmac binding laminator for glueing plastic bindings/side purfs together.


Is that stew mac machine meant only for plastic bindings and purflings?
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
Ken C wrote:
For those of you who are attaching thin wood perflings to bindings prior to bending, what are you using for glue? Seems the heat and steam from the bender could delaminate the perfling and binding.


Nope. No delamination and I use titebond, fiber, and wood.

Kind of curious about those who use CA on the fiber. I have noticed that the fiber seems to "transform" a bit after the TiteBond is applied and dried. It seems more plastic to me (a good thing). Does the same thing happen with CA?
Author:  Jim Watts [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
Ken C wrote:
For those of you who are attaching thin wood perflings to bindings prior to bending, what are you using for glue? Seems the heat and steam from the bender could delaminate the perfling and binding.


Titebond III works really well here.
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
Ken C wrote:
For those of you who are attaching thin wood perflings to bindings prior to bending, what are you using for glue? Seems the heat and steam from the bender could delaminate the perfling and binding.


I use titebond II and hear that epoxy also works well.
Author:  John Killin [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Purfling Lines
Howard Klepper wrote:
tack it into the bottom of the binding rabbet with CA before installing the binding.


Brock Poling wrote:
That is how I do it too.

I do it this way so I can get the miters at the end graft to fit right.


Thanks guys. I was thinking about trying this, but it sounded too simple to work.

John
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