Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - A Question for Experienced Builders

Whatever the reason, it's sad that higher level information on the OLF has declined in general. I believe that the OLF has become a wonderful place for beginner and intermediate builders. They get a lot of support and encouragement here and that's commendable. The fact that we have lost some of the more experienced voices has bothered me to no end but I don't fault them. In some cases, they have moved on to using their valuable time more toward building. Others have left shaking their heads in frustration at the lack of respect, open mindedness and unwillingness to value the voices of experience.

IMO, I believe we have placed a higher priority on "niceness" over objective thinking. How many times has valuable objective info been presented in a rather terse and abrupt voice and a rift has developed? And the folks become concerned more over the tone rather than the content. This happens at least every few months, and personally, I end up visiting or posting less and less after each occurrence. I actually get embarrassed at the level of discourse that follows and become selfish of my time it takes away from something more productive. And it all has come down to pleading with folks to develop a thicker skin and hear the message rather than the tone of the messenger. It's a pattern that hasn't changed for years...and it occurs more here than any other forum I visit.

That's my take on it and hopefully the message can be heard in the way it was intended.

I am filled with admiration when Alan Currath spends what is obviously a good hour of his time crafting a pithy, well reasoned response to a new builder's question on modifying a body shape. And I stand in awe of similar efforts by a host of very experienced builders here and elsewhere in providing comprehensive answers to tens of thousands of questions across the gamut of construction, finish, and repair topics.

One question: why bother?

I don't spend as much time on forums as the folks you mentioned but between the time I spend here and the time I spend answering builder-related questions from my web site, it adds up.

One reason I spend that time is because I know how hard it is when you are starting out. It's rewarding to help people. And I would have loved to have web resources for those first seveal years.

Another is that, creating and participating in a culture of sharing advances the craft and my personal growth as a builder. If everyone shares what they know, everyone gains more than they give.

It's also helpful to get your beliefs challenged once in a while.

But the real reason I spend so much time on line is naked self-interest.

Of course there's also the dark side of all of this.

The experienced luthier who makes a strong statement that he can't explain and refuses to back off when his reasoning is questioned and even demonstrated to be wrong.

The experienced luthier who answers a question in the middle of a thread with a rude comment for no apparant reason.

The experienced luthier who throws out a cliche in response to a slightly unusual question that he didn't bother to really understand and who then runs off in a huff when his pearls of wisdom are not received the way he feels they should be received.

It's a sad community that would silentlly accept bad behavior like this for some guitar building technique.

John Platko wrote:

What about the builder with 20, 30, 40 years of experience who finds that he HAS to defend himself, his methods and his ideas to someone who is yet to finish their first guitar kit?

You wonder why they a bit testy when that happens?

Again we seem to be of the mind that all opinions are of equal merit, when clearly they are not.

We should all be civil to one another, but that does not imply that we are all of equal skills. We should each behave accordingly.

Ya'll are making this out to be much more complicated than it really is.

We all know the truth, but just don't want to speak it. We're just a bunch of serious guitar dorks who don't have any real friends to hang out with. The forum is a guitar geek support group, kind of like a book club, your quarterly algebra potluck, etc.

:geek:

Go ask your wife, she'll tell you I'm right (I'd include "ask your girlfriend", but c'mon, let's be realistic...)

Author:	LanceK [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
One word Fellowship... I dont make my living from guitar building, it supplements. But I sure do enjoy the fellowship I get here. And it carries over to the shows and gatherings. I suspect if I spent 16 hours alone in a shop I might even crave this more.

Author:	Brock Poling [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
While I suspect you have an agenda for such questions, I will take the question at face value. Why do you think that Rick's, Mario's or Alan's messages aren't getting through? Because there is contention and not everyone instantly and universally agrees? I don't think that is proof that the messages are not being heard. My experience has been that it is often a few cantankerous, argumentative and sometimes mean spirited members who make it LOOK like the community at large does not appreciate these efforts, when in fact they are. I have personally shared that thought with all three of these folks. And on another occasion we did this to Kevin Ryan when he introduced his flex-ab product -- a couple people who didn't see the value dominated the conversation and on the surface appeared to speak for the entire community, when in fact I think many of us were pretty excited about his innovation.) In a community like this there are always "pot stirrers" we need to do our best to ignore them and recognize they do not speak for those of us who are serious about sharing or learning. People share their knowledge for thier own reasons. Ervin is about to release a book with over 40 years of knowledge in it. I assure you that no matter what he charges the small amount of financial gain he will get will be dwarfed by the effort it took to write and catalog this knowledge, and regardless of the price we will all be the beneficiaries of this effort, not him. In some I suspect that competence breeds the desire to share. I think that is why they do it. And, I for one and grateful for it.

Author:	Kent Chasson [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
I don't spend as much time on forums as the folks you mentioned but between the time I spend here and the time I spend answering builder-related questions from my web site, it adds up. One reason I spend that time is because I know how hard it is when you are starting out. It's rewarding to help people. And I would have loved to have web resources for those first seveal years. Another is that, creating and participating in a culture of sharing advances the craft and my personal growth as a builder. If everyone shares what they know, everyone gains more than they give. It's also helpful to get your beliefs challenged once in a while.

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
"The true measure of a craftsman’s soul is all he has learn, multiplied by all he has taught." C.M. Payne 1901-1966

Author:	JJ Donohue [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
Whatever the reason, it's sad that higher level information on the OLF has declined in general. I believe that the OLF has become a wonderful place for beginner and intermediate builders. They get a lot of support and encouragement here and that's commendable. The fact that we have lost some of the more experienced voices has bothered me to no end but I don't fault them. In some cases, they have moved on to using their valuable time more toward building. Others have left shaking their heads in frustration at the lack of respect, open mindedness and unwillingness to value the voices of experience. IMO, I believe we have placed a higher priority on "niceness" over objective thinking. How many times has valuable objective info been presented in a rather terse and abrupt voice and a rift has developed? And the folks become concerned more over the tone rather than the content. This happens at least every few months, and personally, I end up visiting or posting less and less after each occurrence. I actually get embarrassed at the level of discourse that follows and become selfish of my time it takes away from something more productive. And it all has come down to pleading with folks to develop a thicker skin and hear the message rather than the tone of the messenger. It's a pattern that hasn't changed for years...and it occurs more here than any other forum I visit. That's my take on it and hopefully the message can be heard in the way it was intended.

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A Question for Experienced Builders http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=21336	Page 1 of 4

Author:	Brock Poling [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
JJ Donohue wrote: Whatever the reason, it's sad that higher level information on the OLF has declined in general. I believe that the OLF has become a wonderful place for beginner and intermediate builders. They get a lot of support and encouragement here and that's commendable. The fact that we have lost some of the more experienced voices has bothered me to no end but I don't fault them. In some cases, they have moved on to using their valuable time more toward building. Others have left shaking their heads in frustration at the lack of respect, open mindedness and unwillingness to value the voices of experience. IMO, I believe we have placed a higher priority on "niceness" over objective thinking. How many times has valuable objective info been presented in a rather terse and abrupt voice and a rift has developed? And the folks become concerned more over the tone rather than the content. This happens at least every few months, and personally, I end up visiting or posting less and less after each occurrence. I actually get embarrassed at the level of discourse that follows and become selfish of my time it takes away from something more productive. And it all has come down to pleading with folks to develop a thicker skin and hear the message rather than the tone of the messenger. It's a pattern that hasn't changed for years...and it occurs more here than any other forum I visit. That's my take on it and hopefully the message can be heard in the way it was intended. I hear you. I don't see it as a "be nice" or "be honest" debate. Clearly honesty can always be phrased in a constructive and nice way. I see this less of the problem and the true nature of it is that we seem think that there is an equal value on the comments of all posters, when clearly that is not the case. I see terse and rude comments going both directions, from the more experienced to the less experienced because they are frustrated that less experienced builders don't respect their experience in the field, and younger builders thinking that they have a right to voice their opinion equally. So everyone walks away from these exchanges frustrated. So regardless of whether we try to maintain civility or not that does not presuppose that all opinions are of equal merit. That is something that can only be changed by modifying our community culture. Lance and I certainly have a bit of influence over this, but in truth it is up to each of us as a "society" to determine how we recognize merit, and what we will do to endeavor to nurture valuable content.

Author:	bluescreek [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
most of us that do this as an income have suffered through the school of hard knocks. Education is something that you must earn or pay for. You either pay the teacher or learn from the mistake. I know that not all experts will agree ,and this isn't because one is or isn't smarter than the other. Often it may be technique or building styles and lets face it , there is more than one way to do something. The information here is worth what you paid for it so learn to glean the information. I try sharing my experience. I enjoy reading replies and Al Carruths postings. Sharing information is my way or repaying the dues from when I was learning. We learn by sharing information. All I hope for is that if we do disagree , we don;t get disagreeable. Teaching is a way to keep your skills sharp. john hall

Author:	John Platko [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
Quote: I am filled with admiration when Alan Currath spends what is obviously a good hour of his time crafting a pithy, well reasoned response to a new builder's question on modifying a body shape. And I stand in awe of similar efforts by a host of very experienced builders here and elsewhere in providing comprehensive answers to tens of thousands of questions across the gamut of construction, finish, and repair topics. One question: why bother? I've known Al for a fair while now and I think he does what he does because of who he is. He's a generous person who shares. He shares his knowledge to all who ask. When I was his student he shared his tools and supplies and he didn't get mad when, to my horror, I dropped his bench plane.

Author:	Bruce Dickey [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
One of the afore mentioned luthiers used to comment that he hung out on the boards because every three or four weeks there was an "Aha Moment". They learn too. So sharing what they have picked up is a given, but picking up solutions to other issues is good for them too. Sometimes it's nothing more that simplifying a complex problem. We could probably start another thread to share major luthier advances due to forums and "older bulletin boards" since Cumpiano and Natelson published their tome. I for one have certainly benefited from everyone mentioned so far in this thread, including the guy who started it. Kudos Todd. (you dropped his plane! )

Author:	Rod True [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
Kent Chasson wrote: I don't spend as much time on forums as the folks you mentioned but between the time I spend here and the time I spend answering builder-related questions from my web site, it adds up. One reason I spend that time is because I know how hard it is when you are starting out. It's rewarding to help people. And I would have loved to have web resources for those first seveal years. Another is that, creating and participating in a culture of sharing advances the craft and my personal growth as a builder. If everyone shares what they know, everyone gains more than they give. It's also helpful to get your beliefs challenged once in a while. I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks Kent. When you give something away, it helps solidify what you "know" thus not just becoming smart, but becoming wise.

Author:	Fred Tellier [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
I am not an experienced builder, guitar 4 lacquer curing and 5 getting binding installed, but I will say I appreciate the information presented here by all levels of builders., I don't care if an answer seems terse or the presenter seems to think the question is something everyone already knows the info is always appreciated by someone. The archive of past posts is a great resource and I have spend lots of enjoyable time searching for things and often find things I never thought of looking for. I don't think anyone needs to argumentative or thin skinned about posts, we don't all do things the same way or use the same products. I read with an open mind and often don't follow or even understand the advice given, but still appreciate the time anyone spends posting here. This is the greatest forum on the web for guitar builders. Thanks guys Fred

Author:	Alan Carruth [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
There are a few reasons why I post on these groups, and some of them have been mentioned already: payback, learning, and fellowship among them. We 'old dogs' remember the time when all good guitars either came from factories or Europe. I don't go back quite as far as Rick Turner, but when I started out there were not that many sources of information. For one thing, there was no Internet! People like Rick and Charles Fox and others took the time to tell us newbies how to do it, through organizations like the Guild of American Luthiers. There was also the Catgut Acoustical Society, spreading the word about musical instrument acoustics. Folks like Carleen Hutchins, Fred Dickens, and Ollie Rogers spent a lot of time explaining to me how this stuff worked, and gradually I got some of it through my head. I can't pay Ollie or Fred back for all the explanations and ideas they gave to me, but I can pass them on, and do some of the experiments they never got around to, to answer some of 'life's persistent questions'. The idea behind the GAL was that nobody knows everything, but that everybody knows something useful. Lists like these put that exchange of information into real time. I admit that I don't get some useful tidbit off this list every day, but once in a while something comes up that has me smack my forehead: why didn't I think of that? Of course, it's always nice to talk with a fellow sufferer or two(thousand). My wife sort of glazes over when I start to wonder whether I ought to leave that bojanglewood back a little thicker, but you guys are always good for an opinion (and a laugh). But the real reason I spend so much time on line is naked self-interest. I figure that if I can post some stuff that makes it sound as though I know what I'm doing, maybe I'll sell some guitars. You need pretty pictures, of course, but they're a dime a dozen. People need some other reason to buy one of mine rather than somebody else's, and my 'hook' is acoustics. I know most of you guys don't buy guitars, but what the heck; a rep's a rep. Besides, a few of you are as much into it as I a, and I've gotten some good critiques and learned a few things from you that sharpened up my sales pitch. So far it's worked pretty well, knock wood.

Author:	John Platko [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
Quote: But the real reason I spend so much time on line is naked self-interest. I doubt it.

Author:	John Platko [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
Of course there's also the dark side of all of this. The experienced luthier who makes a strong statement that he can't explain and refuses to back off when his reasoning is questioned and even demonstrated to be wrong. The experienced luthier who answers a question in the middle of a thread with a rude comment for no apparant reason. The experienced luthier who throws out a cliche in response to a slightly unusual question that he didn't bother to really understand and who then runs off in a huff when his pearls of wisdom are not received the way he feels they should be received. It's a sad community that would silentlly accept bad behavior like this for some guitar building technique.

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Author:	Burton LeGeyt [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
Excellent points John.

Author:	Mike Collins [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
We all learn when we share ! The OLF is a great sharing place! No matter how many guitars you've made or fixed ,there is always something to learn . Mike

Author:	bluescreek [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
There are times when we all put our foot in it. I hope I never treated anyone with disrespect. My Grandfather gave me some great advice , " You can learn from the village idiot if listen enough". I learn as much as I share. To all Thank you for that. To anyone I may have offended may you please accept my apology and to all that I may have helped enjoy. john hall

Author:	stan thomison [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
If your not a pro shop and at some point decide to do an apprenticeship, and get upset with pointed views here, think twice, or get a thick skin. Having had conversations or hearing conversations between the better pro shops I know why and why they do or don't partcipates and JJ said it well. It may come to a point where the blind are leading the blind or at least the nearsighted.

Author:	jordan aceto [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
Lots of great points everybody. I hang out and post here because... my real life friends have no interest, or even concept of the things that keep me up at night, and it is nice to interact with people who get it. The back and forth of information and tips is also totally valuable, i was thinking today about the many areas of my building that have been improved by things i learned here. (oh yeah, and there is that desperate need to be admired...)

Author:	Brock Poling [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
John Platko wrote: Of course there's also the dark side of all of this. The experienced luthier who makes a strong statement that he can't explain and refuses to back off when his reasoning is questioned and even demonstrated to be wrong. The experienced luthier who answers a question in the middle of a thread with a rude comment for no apparant reason. The experienced luthier who throws out a cliche in response to a slightly unusual question that he didn't bother to really understand and who then runs off in a huff when his pearls of wisdom are not received the way he feels they should be received. It's a sad community that would silentlly accept bad behavior like this for some guitar building technique. What about the builder with 20, 30, 40 years of experience who finds that he HAS to defend himself, his methods and his ideas to someone who is yet to finish their first guitar kit? You wonder why they a bit testy when that happens? Again we seem to be of the mind that all opinions are of equal merit, when clearly they are not. We should all be civil to one another, but that does not imply that we are all of equal skills. We should each behave accordingly.

Author:	David Collins [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
Ya'll are making this out to be much more complicated than it really is. We all know the truth, but just don't want to speak it. We're just a bunch of serious guitar dorks who don't have any real friends to hang out with. The forum is a guitar geek support group, kind of like a book club, your quarterly algebra potluck, etc. Go ask your wife, she'll tell you I'm right (I'd include "ask your girlfriend", but c'mon, let's be realistic...)

Author:	Rod True [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
Brock Poling wrote: John Platko wrote: Of course there's also the dark side of all of this. The experienced luthier who makes a strong statement that he can't explain and refuses to back off when his reasoning is questioned and even demonstrated to be wrong. The experienced luthier who answers a question in the middle of a thread with a rude comment for no apparant reason. The experienced luthier who throws out a cliche in response to a slightly unusual question that he didn't bother to really understand and who then runs off in a huff when his pearls of wisdom are not received the way he feels they should be received. It's a sad community that would silentlly accept bad behavior like this for some guitar building technique. What about the builder with 20, 30, 40 years of experience who finds that he HAS to defend himself, his methods and his ideas to someone who is yet to finish their first guitar kit? You wonder why they a bit testy when that happens? Again we seem to be of the mind that all opinions are of equal merit, when clearly they are not. We should all be civil to one another, but that does not imply that we are all of equal skills. We should each behave accordingly. There's one more factor to consider in those with the fore mentioned experience. They also don't want to just hand over all the secretes. Which is a good thing. They often learned by trying new things. And we (us rookies, novices, armatures and semi-pros) should also look at this craft the same way. We have enough information on the net either in archives here or at the other forums that answer all of our questions, often though we are just to lazy to go find the answers. Spoon feed I tell you. Just like the generation of today. What type of "fast food" service can we get in (fill in the genera here) so that we don't have to really learn, we can just 'do it'. One thing I really appreciate about Mario is when he gives short answers and than just says, "Go try it and let us know how it worked out". There's way more wisdom to gain in doing or trying something that you don't have all the answers too.

Author:	Darrin D Oilar [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
David Collins wrote: Ya'll are making this out to be much more complicated than it really is. We all know the truth, but just don't want to speak it. We're just a bunch of serious guitar dorks who don't have any real friends to hang out with. The forum is a guitar geek support group, kind of like a book club, your quarterly algebra potluck, etc. Go ask your wife, she'll tell you I'm right (I'd include "ask your girlfriend", but c'mon, let's be realistic...) When I told this girl I was building a guitar she said, "Seriously? My dad has built like ten. He'll be so excited to have a guitar nerd friend." Darrin

Author:	Mark Ewing [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Question for Experienced Builders
One of the feelings I had when I finished my first was that it was like coming to the end of an amazing journey on a trail I had never been down before. At times it felt like I was in the wilderness. OLF helped me realize that I am not alone on the trail. Knowing that others have weathered the journey longer and with great success helped immensely. All the sharing created an awareness that there are others on the journey, and they have found a way to through the challenges that all of us encounter and have realized a measure of success. It made me believe it can be done with confidence. The knowledge sharing helps tremendously but it is also the striving for excellence that a newbies get to peer in on that more experienced builders demonstrate and allows us to catch a vision of. This will cause us all to work hard to craft the best instruments we can build while trying to improve on the last one. Each hand build is a tremendous commitment of time and resource. Each instrument is a work of art. We are a community of artisans that desire to create the finest art we can. Thank you all for taking the time to share your time and craft. It makes us all better for it.