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Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=21294		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Cal Maier [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
I'm hoping someone will be able to tell me if Isopropol alcohol (the 99% stuff) will work OK for disolving shellac for french polishing? We have a problem here in Canada in that denatured alcohol is regulated by the gov't and is not available unless you spec. order it through a pharmacy at a cost of $13.00 for a half quart, which is a rediculous price. Or you can by ethanol through the Prov. liquor store but with taxes the price is worse like $27.00 in taxes alone, for a quart. wow7-eyes

This is typical of over governing, you can buy methanol in any hardware or grocery store, which is a far more dangerous chemical, but the Gov't won;t let you by ethanol duh

Thanks,

Cal
Author:  windsurfer [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
Reagent grade 2-proponol works fine for dissolving shellac flakes. It is more difficult to french polish using IPA because the solvent evaporates much faster than ethanol or methonol, but it works fine for base coats.

note: most drug store IPA is mostly water and will not work well for putting shellac into solution.

-jd
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
Hi Cal,
Your fellow countryman, Mario Proulx, said he dissolves his shellac flakes in methanol for F.P..
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
Go to Home depot and buy menthal hydrate. It works great for shellac. I wouldn't use Isopropol for it. The MH is much less expensive.
Author:  Cal Maier [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
Thanks the for tips guys, I guess I'll be using Methyl Hydrate for now but from what I've read the health hazards are a lot worse than DNA. I 'spose I'll have to go cross the border to pick up some DNA at a reasonable cost.

Thanks Again,

Cal
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
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Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
Here I pay about 18$ for 1 liter which a bit short of a quart. It is very expensive but I don't find it that ridiculous compared to what I pay for the wood and most important the amount of time invested in this d*** hobby :) With 1 quart you can do at least 2 guitars. What I like about grain ethanol is that it is (to a certain extent anyway), ofc, not as toxic as methanol.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
Water is an issue!!! Stick with an ethanol Denatured or pure grain alcohol inperticularly if French polishing
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
I know one builder in Canada who uses rubbing alcohol for FP.
Apparently water is not an issue, but rather additives in the US version that the Canadian one doesn't have.
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
I would think that water would be an issue too.

In the FP class with Robbie that I am taking Andy tried to dissolve shellac flakes in the 150 proof variety (watered down for California folks... :D ) of Everclear and the flakes would not dissolve. The 190 proof Everclear, what I smuggled in from Indiana..., is pure grain alcohol and dissolved the flakes in 4 hours.

With this said I would think that a good test would be how long does it take for the liquid used to dissolve the flakes. if what ever one uses does not dissolve the flakes well it most certainly won't work for FP.
Author:  windsurfer [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
Water is an issue with all alchohols - they all absorb water from the atmosphere over time. IPA is no worse that MeOH or EtOH.

Please note that I am referring to pure IPA (2-Proponol) not drug store rubbing Alchohol which is water with a little IPA added to make is smell bad.

Pure IPA is not significantly cheaper than other alchohols. It is safer than MeOH.

pure IPA dissolves shellac flakes just fine, but is harder to french polish with because it evaporated so quickly. I use shellac flakes dissolved in IPA as a base coat -using orange and amber flakes to get the color I want. I then pore fill with pumice and french polish using super blonde flakes dissolved in EtOH.

-jd
Author:  Michael Lloyd [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
Shoppers Drug here in Canada offers 2 rubbing alcohol products. Don't buy the isopropyl rubbing alcohol, as it will not dissolve the shellac. The product to buy is their rubbing alcohol compound Life brand, 95% ethanol anhydrous. I've had no issues with this product during French polishing and it’s inexpensive at around $5.00 per 500 ml.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
Can you get Bacardi 151 there? That works and is non-toxic...unless you drink a lot of it every day...which french polishing could drive one to do.
Author:  Cal Maier [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
It's interesting that some products with the same generic name can be so different when sold in different countries.

You have a good point Hesh, if it doesn't disolve flakes it won't work.

I really wan't to stay away from methyl hydrate, because of the severe health issues associated with it, the fact that it will pass through most rubber gloves, can be absorbed through ones skin, or eyes, and even respirators aren't all that effective when using it, as guitar makers and repairers we are exposed to enough hazardous materials without adding this stuff to the list.

Thanks for the tip about Shoppers brand alcohol Micheal L. I will be going out today to get some and giving it a try right away, it sounds very promising.

Thanks to all who answered this post, that's the great thing about this forum, the combined knowledge base is unbelievably huge!

Cal
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
A correction: it may be the 191 proof that is needed for shellac.
Author:  David Newton [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
Maybe some pure ethanol can be sourced from a medical lab.
I buy "deisel" brand everclear at the liquor store, but it's $14 per liter.
I was in a med lab last week on a job, and they get it in gallon jugs. I'm going to hit them up and see if they will sell me some.
Author:  David Newton [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
The medical lab guy said it was too little money to sell it to me, and other legal ramifications, so he just gave me a gallon!
Author:  Alain Lambert [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
Hi Cal, I am in Canada too and recently found a source for denaturated alcool.
There are new Bio-fireplaces that uses ethyl alcool as fuel. They do not need chimneys, etc.
Try to find a fireplace store and ask for it.
The brand name I found is Fanola. I paid $CDN 13 for a liter.
http://www.fanola.com/EN/
They have gel and liquid, make sure you get the liquid.
It contains some acetone and isopropyl acetate as denaturants http://www.workingwondersus.com/images/store/documents/documentFile1200434553.pdf)
Author:  David Newton [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
Turns out what I was offered was not ethanol but methanol, the nasty stuff, I guess. Looks like $14 per liter everclear for me, and I should be happy to get it.
Author:  Cal Maier [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
Thanks the the tip Alain I will check that out. I did go out to Shoppers Drugs and got some of their Life brand 95% ethanol R.A. like Micheal L. suggested. It dissolved a 1lb. cut of shellac flakes in about 3 or so hours and I'll be doing some F.P. with it later today, so it looks promising. The price here in Kelowna was only $3.50 for 1/2 liter, which is closer to what it should be, as opposed to $13.00 for 1/2 liter at another pharmacy.

David, I would suspect that the Gov't in the U.S. will follow suit and start to regulate the sale of ethanol much like the Cdn. Gov't does. I seems that DNA is one of the main ingredients in the production of crystal meth and other nasty stuff. So I'm sure the idiots that are making this stuff have started using methanol instead, cause it's so easy to get!

Thanks again,

Cal
Author:  David Newton [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
The more reading I do on the subject of denatured alcohol, the less I'm scared of the denaturing chemicals. Methanol is less than 1% of most DNA's
I found Behkol per gallon @ $23 plus shipping ($10 to me). That is a pretty good price.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isopropol alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?
Plain old denatured alcohol (ethanol) is about $10-12 a gallon at home depot here in Maryland. I think it's over 90 some % ethanol. I wonder what would make behkol work any better?
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