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Handmade Instruments and Security http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=21189	Page 1 of 1

Author:	charliewood [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Handmade Instruments and Security
I was reading a post that was added to the Fraudulent Cashiers Check discussion when it struck me that this topic sort of lends itself to a discussion about security features for handbuilders - and thier instruments... Its way more of a hit Im sure for a small builder to be scammed or robbed, than it would be for a largescale building operation Im sure... I mean 2x $5k guitars = ouch!!!! Ive seen these little microchips that can be embedded anywhere in a guitar... I forget the name of the Co. that markets them offhand,,, but its a tiny identifying chip that can be read with a proper scanner - and many pawnshops are being encouraged to use these scanners - to avoid buying hot instruments,,,, theres a central database thats kept and updated for identifying numbers.... that can be checked against by computer,,, and the microchip is sold with registration for this database included in the price from what I understand. I may be wrong but I think thats how it goes... Theres hidden identifying features, and the old serial number... But what else if anything can be done to enhance the security of an instrument for its owner.... I mean they have trackers in laptops that will automatically send out information - they have trackers for cell phones to keep track of kids... is it only a matter of time before tracking devices could be employed on high end guitars,,, or really any guitar that a person didnt want stolen - high end or not???? I mean one could be hidden in an onboard preamp pretty easily, and powered by the 9v batterymabye? I imagine.. couldnt it? Hey theres a million dollar idea for some electronics geek... (Just give me 10K for it LOL) What methods for instrument security do you employ (of course ... I imagine many wont want to reveal something like that.. if indeed a novel system is being used by that person,,, just in case the wrong folk read it, but its a valid question in todays social climate) Plus no-one likes getting ripped off! Cheers Charlie

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Handmade Instruments and Security
Stewmac sells SNAGG chips and scan guns. But the problem is you have to be in close enough proximity to use the scanner. Lo-Jack modules are the right kind of solution but require an annual service fee per module.

Author:	Mark Groza [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Handmade Instruments and Security
I would amagine a vet. could give you a chip like the ones they put in animals, to hide in a glue joint that could be scanned to prove it's yours,but you would have to find the guitar first.I keep mine locked up in a vault i made out of an old stock cage for them so they would be hard to get if someone broke in,so they would probably have to take a tv or something else.

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Handmade Instruments and Security
Mark Groza wrote: I would amagine a vet. could give you a chip like the ones they put in animals, to hide in a glue joint that could be scanned to prove it's yours,but you would have to find the guitar first.I keep mine locked up in a vault i made out of an old stock cage for them so they would be hard to get if someone broke in,so they would probably have to take a tv or something else. That would be the SNAGG chip I mentioned available at Stewmac

Author:	charliewood [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Handmade Instruments and Security
Thanks for the name of that product Michael...... Judging by the posts so far it sorta seems like - most luthiers - being nice people generally.... probably have the attitude of "I have always trusted people, and its a shame to have to think about things like this,,," A shame to be sure! And Im sure that these things becoming more prevalent will sort of bring the end of an era so to speak..... I went shopping for guitars a few years back,, the guy helped me find one I really liked.. I only had $1050 on me - but it was a $2450 Morgan OM... He said - "take it away, and come back when you have the rest.,,," He didnt even ask for ID - just my name - wrote it down.... I was a bit stunned and I sort of said - "hey you wanna see some ID and stuff?" He was like "Oh..... yeah mabye, huh?" Foolhardy, or a good judge of character?, Ive seen things happen like that all through my life.. Like that scene in the Blues Brother movie ..... Where "the Band" go into Ray's Music... played the great Ray Charles of course and left with some amps guitars drums and equipment, without cash, so they could go make the money...playing... Not fiction at all once upon a time..... I thought mabye someone wiley old luthier had some trick up his sleeve, that could definitely proove the instrument was thiers and the rightful owner - but really in a GPS era - its really the only way to be able to track down a errant instrument.. and makes for a short discussion,,,, Cheers Charlie

Author:	Michael Jin [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Handmade Instruments and Security
I think the only thing that can realistically be done is to be more careful about your transactions. Even if you were to embed a chip, most chips require you to be within some sort of proximity of the chip in order to track it. You could argue that you could try to get pawn shops and instrument shops to scan the instruments, but let's get real... how many of them actually would? Most of them could care less if they were dealing in stolen goods anyway. And the simple fact that you're trying to get the word out about it would only tip off thieves so that they can locate and disable or remove the chips anyway meaning you've just thrown money away on an ineffective solution. I think the only realistic solution is doing your best to be more careful about verifying the identity of the clients and making sure you cover your bases during transactions to keep yourself from getting burned. A secondary thing would be probably to embed a serial number on the guitar with a link to a website where you keep an online database. Unlike the person in the other thread, I don't believe listing the guitars that are stolen is a good idea. I can't think of too many people who would come and tell you they have your stolen guitar knowing that they could risk you trying to take the instrument back, leaving them to take the loss. Instead I would encourage a system where you simply encourage owners to register their instruments with their information for warranty purposes and encourage that information to be updated whenever the guitars change ownership by allowing warranties to be transferred. I would think this would be far more likely to get you back in touch with a stolen guitar simply because the guitar is bound to come into the hands of a buyer who doesn't know that the instrument is stolen and wants to update the registration and warranty in his own name. Personally speaking, if I found out that the instrument I just spent thousands of dollars on was stolen, I'd stay quiet about it and make no effort to contact the person it was stolen from. Some of you may criticize me for lacking integrity, but I personally see it as lacking stupidity as I'd be the one left without my thousands of dollars if someone got that instrument back... Just about everyone I know is the same way and when trying to solve problems, you have to be realistic about what to expect from people. Just my thoughts...

Author:	Rod True [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Handmade Instruments and Security
I agree with Michael. I would think being carefull with every transaction for a custom made guitar is important. A deposit (if you have a waiting list) down payment (I've seen as high as 75% by some) than final cleared payment before shipping. A customer can kill a luthier's reputation if he doesn't deliver. However, a luthier has little to no recourse on a customer that goes south. Nice score on the Morgan, Charlie. When are we going to see one of yours

Author:	charliewood [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Handmade Instruments and Security
Michael Jin Thanks for your thoughts - and truly what you say is really on the mark! One thing to be aware of though, is that these chips are extremely tiny, and made to be embedded within the guitar in the construction process... not just under the truss rod cover, or under the pickguard, or something like that. They can be installed up to a certain depth into the wood and still register on the scanner (I cant remember exactly how deep but remember being impressed at how deeply you can hide them within the wood),,,, they can be implanted in such a way as to remove them (if you could find them) would detroy the entire instrument, such as embedding them in the neck block under the fretboard extension, or other "akward" places to remove. They can also be installed invisibly, with an pinnail plane, where you can hide the chip (which is very small and cylindrical) into a hole and use the invisible nail technique of hiding the compartment by gluing the sliver back down. Apart from all that, however What you say about pawnshop owners is true, and these things truly are of limited use, currently... and unless every proprietor of guitar and pawn shops were using them... which they are not.... and likely not all of them ever will.... Then theres Craigslist, Ebay etc So vigilance is the only real protection.... Cheers Charlie Quote: Nice score on the Morgan, Charlie. When are we going to see one of yours PS Rod - Youll be seeing one sooner than later - Im not kidding this time LOL - its actually coming to fruitiion finally, and I have trio on the go - so Im hoping once #1 is unvieled there will be a rapid succession of instruments coming afterwards...

Author:	Frei [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Handmade Instruments and Security
It should also be assumed that these people read these forums, there was an ebayer who people were having problems with, and yup, he was registered at the Taylor forum. Postal m/o is the way to go. The post office will cash them, its a federal crime to forge them.

Author:	wbergman [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Handmade Instruments and Security
I have a vague recollection of reading to not accept postal money orders without waiting to clear them, becasue they are often stolen or forged. I think, wait for it to clear, or pay the premium to use some insured method, such as charge card (call for authorization) or PayPal.

Author:	Blain [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Handmade Instruments and Security
I agree with being careful during the transaction and I agree that it's best not to post a stolen instrument on your web site if you plan to retrieve the instrument. But, I think for the one gentlemen who had two instruments stolen and only wanted to try and gain information of who stole them, but said whoever bought them could keep them or he would buy them back....Posting on his website would be a good idea. A lot of people that buy an instument for a couple thousand would be reluctant to let the builder know that they bought this instrument, in fear of being out the couple of thousand they forked over for it. If the builder lets them keep it or offers to buy it back, I would think you would see most everyone come forward to try and help. For the record, I also think transfering the warranty so long as everyone registers the instrument is a good idea as well. And could very well be a great solution to stumbling upon a stolen instrument of yours. It would probably be a good idea to post the transferable warranty information on your web site in case the web address and other information were removed from your guitar and I would make sure that any serial number combination could be entered (not just valid ones) so that if the serial number were changed you would still have the submission of the false serial number during transfer of registration (instead of just telling the buyer that the serial number is not valid). Then you can follow up with the buyer already knowing that they have one of your guitars with a serial number that has been altered.

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