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CF necks - Experiential Observations
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Author:  charliewood [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  CF necks - Experiential Observations
Reading the other topic on CF in necks got me thinking about how long its been employed, and how well it seems to achieve its end objective..
I imagine that the OLF would be a good, if not the best place to ask CF questions... as it seems like many a grey haired luthier here is always on the cutting edge of some advancement in luthierie or other,,,, and this is likely where Id surely find someone employing CF for a while by now...

Im thinking of CF reinforcing necks in the future myself - I was wondering if someone here could chime in who has been doing it awhile and let me know whether
It really stabilizes neck movement to a high degree...??
How many of your CF instruments have you seen at thier 1 years checkup.. or any other subsequent visits..and have you had to do any neck fudging??? other than merely player preference that is,,,,
What are the players experiences with thier necks - are they having to make any truss adjustments themselves?
Does it affect playability in anyway? again player experience....
Does it affect the neck to body weight ratio in any way? (Im imagining not signifigantly but thought Id ask)
Is it a cost/benefit ratio that makes it worth the extra cost and materials plus time involved installing CF??
How many use CF without truss rods AT ALL - on what instruments - and could you give any indications of how well its worked for your instruments- using the truss plus CF neck questions as a guide for listing your experience..
Thanks to all you guys who tak the time to educate us novice wood whittlers!!

Cheers
Charlie
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CF necks - Experiential Observations
Hey Charlie,

I'm a total rookie on the CF (although I am installing on a current build) use in necks.

The reason I want to install is that I'm make a solid, one piece hondo hog neck and I just want that extra stiffness, like I get when making a laminated neck block.

The other reason is that I've heard adding the CF helps with sustain of the notes. Now, I'm trying to go from memory here so I may not be correct. The density of the CF (or is it stiffness) makes for a more rigid neck thus not taking vibrations away from the body while the notes are played. Thus, adding to the sustain (I think to some degree, adding to the brightness as well).

Again, I could totally be off track there so lets, see what those "gray haired luthier's" have to say about it ;)
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CF necks - Experiential Observations
Charlie...I've used CF on 9 guitars over a period of 5 years. This includes super long electric necks. The longest is two guitars at 5 years with several over 3 years. During that time, I have seen no evidence of a neck going wabbly requiring any modification. I use 2 way adjustable truss rods but have never had to make any adjustments beyond the initial setup. I happen to use laminations in my necks which I believe also helps with stability. I can't comment on tonal improvement because I have no control to which I can compare. Nonetheless, I can feel good vibes and believe that CF transfers sound effectively.
Author:  Rich Schnee [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CF necks - Experiential Observations
I started using CF in 1996 and haven’t had a single issue with it although I haven’t had any real issues with all the necks that I made prior 1996. I continue to use it because it does no harm and it is unaffected by seasonal changes plus it helps prevent neck brakeage should the guitar fall backwards especially if you use a scarf joint.
For a stable neck, wood selection is still far more important than CF.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CF necks - Experiential Observations
I have been putting CF in necks for about ten years, and the shop i work in was doing it before then. I dont ever think about it, i just consider installing CF reinforcement to be a part of neck making. I have seen plenty of them back in for repairs, after 10+ years, no issues. Necks still move a little, just less and in a more controlled and even way, none of that wonky uneven warping. Truss rod adjustments are generally needed much less frequently, i have gone about four years without adjusting the neck on my stage guitar. I cant know for sure if it makes a better sounding guitar, but i think it does, and it definately doesnt hurt anything.

They are quick and easy to install, so the only downside for me is the cost, which factored in to the total price of materials is almost nothing.

I have also installed a bunch of CF in old guitars/banjos/mandolins/ukes without truss rods that needed neck stabilizing, it works great. I wouldnt build a steel string without a truss rod, but i have done a few classicals with CF and no adjustable rod.

I have a friend who makes selmer style guitars, he prefers to use CF and no truss rod, to keep weight down. Gypsy jazz players like to use light strings and super high action though...

I like it, and i put it in anything i can. I would guess that most handbuilders are using it by now.
Author:  Jeremy Douglas [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CF necks - Experiential Observations
Does the problem that the CF is suppose fix really exist? I'm not a repairperson so I don't know but I've never owned a guitar that had a neck that warped. I've seen really cheap guitars that do this though. I've had my Larrivee for right at 4 years and it's never needed a truss rod adjustment. I've had a SCGC for a few years and the relief hasn't changed in it either.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CF necks - Experiential Observations
I have Martin and Gibson 12 and 10 years old and have no problem with the necks. I had a 20 year old Sigma that was the same. But I guess it's another selling point and some added insurance.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CF necks - Experiential Observations
The problem does exist. Most well built guitars do ok in the long run. Some dont, i see plenty of guitars with necks overbowed on the bass side and underbowed on the treble, or an uneven amount of bowing centralized over a couple of frets like a kink, or the dreaded snakey necks that look like a roller coaster. Any truss rod adjustment is a compromise and it can be a real pain to get a reasonable setup on guitars like that without pulling the frets, leveling the board and refretting.

Those guitars are what pays for my groceries.
Author:  Erik Hauri [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CF necks - Experiential Observations
Keep in mind also that a LOT of folks abuse their guitars more than we builders do gaah - and CF can only help those folks.
Author:  Jeremy Douglas [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CF necks - Experiential Observations
I'll have to take your word as a repairperson but I had to ask because I've never had the problem with any guitar I've owned and I never hear about it on any of the guitar forums.
Author:  R Bryan [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CF necks - Experiential Observations
My observations as a builder (only two e-bass necks) is limited. I also own an instrument that is fabricated from CF + a phenolic board.

CF does a great job of resisting fatigue in woods that would otherwise not be used in higher-tension instruments. I like the predictability of the relief when tension is applied and when tension is off, the neck returns to the original shape. For my next bass, I may use square or rectangular CF tubes set deep into the neck shaft to give an even greater strength/weight ratio.
peace,
Rodger
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CF necks - Experiential Observations
I used the big Martin style box channel single action rod on my first few and things were OK. I think that rod, especially if it is epoxied in provides adequate stiffness in many cases. I don't think I'd use the carbon bars if I was still using that rod. When I switched to the LMI TRSD two way rod I built a couple without carbon reinforcement and the two piece mahogany (non laminated) necks were way too floppy for my taste. I added the two bars and 30 instruments later things have been great. Very very stable necks. I would definitely recommend them if you are using the LMI or Allied rod.
Tone? We all hear differently but I kind of got the feeling that there was a little more sustain and maybe a little more edge on the sound. Who knows? Whatever happened I liked it. Mark me down as a big fan of reinforced necks.
Terry
Author:  jordan aceto [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CF necks - Experiential Observations
I am a big fan of CF in necks, but just for the record - i am not saying "CF or die", a well constructed neck made of well seasoned wood can be just fine, and those things are probably more important than the CF.

To me CF is one of the few "improvements" that actually improves things, so i recommend it.

Most of the problem necks i see are either vintage to the point of being prehistoric, or 1970s factory clunkers. Most of you guys probably take much better care of your guitars than the average customer who buys your guitars.
Author:  charliewood [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CF necks - Experiential Observations
Hey Guys Thanks For All The Replies~!!!
Those are exactly the kinds of things I wanted to know - Theories are great, suppositions lead to innovations ... sometimes -
but experience is golden!!
Im really interested in anything that would contribute more sustain to my instruments - and even though most of you arent saying its "patent fact"...
its seems that the general opinion is that sustain is enhanced - and thats good enough for me to try it out... the stabilizing factor just puts trying this over the top for me.

Id love to hear about anyone using CF in brace construction and other parts of the guitar also
if anyone doing this happens to read this -
Also Id love to hear from Howard K... if he happens to read this,,, if he could tell what he could about using CF in bracing structure,,, as Im always interested in your cool innovations Howard
Cheers Everyone
Charlie
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CF necks - Experiential Observations
Have you tried searching the archives. Look up buttresses and carbon fiber. And there is a discussion going on anout the UTB that touches on the subject.
Here's it is:
viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=21090
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