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Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
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Author:  Rick Cowan [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
For those of you in the border states and Canadian provinces I am curious if you build year round? More specifically, are you able to perform those steps that are particularly sensitive to humidity levels throughout the entire year with careful control of relative humidity and temperature in your shops? In my area (near Toronto) we have large swings in relative humidity during the year - anyone who lives near the Great Lakes knows what I mean. I imagine the same is true for the North Eastern states.

If you do build year round in these conditions, what do you do specifically in your shop to ensure consistent climate control?

I have a second, somewhat related question but I'll treat that as a separate post once I hear your insights on this question.

Cheers!
Rick
Author:  Rod True [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
Well, I'm not in TO but I'm am on the West (Wet) Coast in BC and we can get drastic humidity swings through out the year.

Yes, I build year round. I have very good heat control (both heaters and AC) as well as humidity control (humidifier for the winter months, and AC works to keep it under control in the summer). Also, my shop is insulated very well and 99%(guess) air tight (both very important if you want to maintain control).
Author:  meddlingfool [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
Yep, all year round. My work area is only around 10 X 12, so it's not too hard to control. It's in a basement so being half underground helps. I have a small dehumidifier for summer, and a small 30$ London Drugs humidifier for winter, and it's easy peasy to keep things 40-45% year round. If I was buying things again I would spend a little extra on a combo unit where you can set the % you want and it maintains it all on it's lonesome. Also, I'm all the way at the wet coast so there are a little less dramatic fluctuations.
Cheers
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
Hi Rick, I'm in Windsor and build in a basement shop, I have no difficulty with humidity in the Winter, but watch it closely as like you we get wide ranges on temperature, 5 C today and will be below 0 Thursday. Summer is relatively easy as I hate humidity so the central air runs a lot. I have not done much building in the hot summer months as I would rather be doing things outside.

Mario (grumpy) is about 500 Km north of you, I imagine he has a huge humidifier in his shop.

Fred
Author:  JasonMoe [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
I live in Wisconsin. I build all year. The RH% is usually around 50%. I use an air conditoner in the summer when the humidity is 100% and in the winter I have a pellet stove in the shop. The RH% is around 40% with a humidifier. The glass broke on my stove about 6 weeks ago. I'm still waiting for the dealer to replace it under warranty. What a joke. So anyway I had to bring all my paints (I do airbrushing and taxidermy too) and glues and whatever in the house until it's fixed or warm enough..so for the past month it's been 10-40 degrees in my shop. Being cold the RH is the same, around 40ish with no humidifier. The only thing i've gotten done in the last month was sanding fretboards and reading past forum notes. On a lighter note, my wife was wondering when the guitar building obsession levels out.....LOL..shes trying to find a way to make money off styrofoam peanuts and cardboard boxes.
Image
I'm lucky my shop did'nt burn down.
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
I live in Michigan and in order to build year round I have to either be dehumidifying or humidifying at all times and sometimes both in the same day.

But I built a new shop in my basement that has around 400 square feet that is all RH controlled in my "bubble" I call it. When I built the shop I insulated and installed vapor barriers around the bubble/shop and this has made my shop about the most comfortable place in the house.

With a humidifier from Sears with a digital readout and a dehumidifier, small one, the shop is 72 - 76 degrees F and 44 - 48% RH at all times. I do have to haul some water everyday but that's no problem. In addition the shop is the first stop on the house's forced air heating and AC duct work which helps keep it cozy down here too. Lastly I humidify my entire home as well so the air that is taken into the furnace is humidified when it gets redistributed to me in my shop.

It may seem like humidifying the entire house, building a dedicated shop and installing vapor barriers and insulation, hauling water is a lot to do but fortunately I can say that it all worked out very well for me and I can now build at any time that I wish. [:Y:]
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
In MN the only problem I have is when I leave town in the winter. I have to get someone to stop over and refill the humidifier every couple of days. Anyone have a favorite system that hooks up to your water supply that won't break the bank?
TJK
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
Yep, year 'round (I'd die otherwise!). Just a furnace humidifier in winter & a small dehumidifier & window a/c in summer keep things 42-47%.
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
Yes, I build year around as well.

I build in the basement, so the temperature and humidity fluctuations are less drastic. But I also have humidity control in the shop anyway.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
Yep. Well sealed and insulated basement shop. Two rooms. One humidity controlled, about 225 sq ft.

Summer: window air conditioner and dehumidifier, sometimes use both at the same time. Dehumidifier is mounted on shelf above utility sink into which it drains.

Winter: Venta-Sonic humidifer. Maintains RH at 42 % (where I want it), pretty much on the nose, automatically. Just have to refill the tank every 3 or 4 days.

Several hygrometers, calibrated with a sling psychrometer.
Author:  Pat Foster [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
All year 'round. I'm in Spokane, eastern WA, about 100 mi south of the Canadian border. Humidity is fairly stable in the area so it's not too much of a problem in my sort-of-insulated 220 sq ft garage/shop. I keep tabs with a sling psychrometer. I keep it above 40°F in winter and crank up the propane heater when I want to work out there, and for summer I have window AC. The power bills get a little steep December - Feb. A new garage and shop is in the fantasy stage. The economy will help me decide if it becomes a reality.

Pat
Author:  Mike Collins [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
My shop is 28' X28'with a 12x 8 spray & finishing area !
Very well insulated ;but i get nervous in July when the humidity outside is 95% .
I have A/c & dehumidifiers but i think moisture still sneaks in !! HAA!

I use that month to resaw woods,make bindings,thin & slot f.b.make bridges-
cut brace stock & clean the dusty place !!

I enjoy this time off so to speak !
Gives me time to improve the shop,jigs-etc...

Mike [:Y:]
Author:  Rick Cowan [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
Thanks for your feedback everyone. I know that there have been some extensive threads on the Forum Archives dealing with the various systems used to maintain the ideal RH and temperatures and I'm encouraged to hear that you are able to do this year round. Of course, this opens up new questions for me.

Rod - I read with great interest the original post on your shop a year+ ago (?). Any secret to 'sealing' your shop? Do you spray year round as well in that slick spray booth or do you save that for warmer weather?

Terrence and Dave - Are your shops basement or garage shops? Dave, you are probably the closest of the bunch to me (I'm in Oakville) so your experience on this subject is close to home in more than one way.

Jason - not so much a question but bummer about the stove!

Mike - I'm totally envious 28'x28'! Stand alone shop? Same question I posed to Rod, how do you seal your work area?

Meddlingfoot, Fred, Hesh, Alain and Todd - all of you have basement shops - any special techniques to seal your work space from the rest of the house to help control the climate? Do any of you have separate HVAC systems for your shop and the remainder of the house (Hesh, you can sit this one out - you already answered it in your post above)? My final question, which is really pertinent to the basement dwellers, relates to dust control rather than humidity. There has been much said on the forum regarding dust control systems but given your shops are inside your homes, how do you stop sawdust from permeating throughout the ventilation systems (assuming you are not running distinct HVAC setups)? HESH - since you're the grand daddy of clean around here, I'm really looking forward to your thoughts on this one!!!! [:Y:]

Thanks again everyone. Your insights are a great help to me.

Cheers
Rick
Author:  Rick Cowan [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
Pat - I meant to ask you as well - any major pitfalls or issues with trying to insulate a garage? I will most likely have to keep my large tools in the garage and set up a 'clean' shop in the basement. Currently, I pretty much have to stop any sort of woodworking by late November and wait until the tools thaw out in late March - a major drag! Insulating the garage would be a big plus but I'm not sure how to effectively pull it off.

Rick
Author:  Rod True [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
Rick Cowan wrote:
Rod - I read with great interest the original post on your shop a year+ ago (?). Any secret to 'sealing' your shop? Do you spray year round as well in that slick spray booth or do you save that for warmer weather?

Cheers
Rick


Rick, I'm lucky in that I was able to build my shop from the ground up. So when I built it, I made sure and poly the inside, all walls and ceiling. I have no windows, only a door so it's pretty easy to keep it air tight. The only opening is behind the fan which is fine for exchanging the air.

I spray all year round because I can control the heat with my heaters. Maintaining your environment will allow you to do all things luthiery when ever you want, even at 3am if you got your mojo working ;)
Author:  Ken C [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
I am in Michigan. I really only build during the winter as I seem to be so busy during the summer. My power tools are in my unheated garage, but my woods are stored inside and most of my assembly takes place indoors. The humidity stays between 40-50% during the winter. AS I spray in my garage, I can't spray anything, though, until warmer weather hits. I have one guitar finished waiting to be sprayed and am now working on an OLF SJ that should be done by spring when I can then spray both.

Ken
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
My shop is a garage with floor heat Rick. It's fairly easy to keep within acceptable limits with an air conditioner and de-humidifier in summer and a simple humidifier in winter.
Terry
Author:  Dave Livermore [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
Rick,
Of course dust collection is an issue.
Do whatever you can, and whatever you can afford to keep the dust down, but you must do something. In my house, the dust collection system is much cheaper than the divorce lawyer I would've needed to hire had I not collected the dust.

When I started, dust collection consisted of a box fan in the window next to my workbench with another fan on the workbench blowing toward the window so anything I kicked up was imediately kicked out.
Now I use a down draft table built right under my workbench. It was installed on the underside, and I drilled a ton of holes in the bench. Whenever I"m in the shop, the downdraft fan is sucking. I'm amazed at how much fine dust is stuck to the filters inside and how little is around the house.

There are a number of posts in the archives on how everyone does their dust collection. I think the nicest route for a do-it-yourselfer is to take a furnace fan, encase it in a frame that is a completely surrounded by furnace filters. Then suspend the aparatus from the ceiling, or in the rafters or anywhere it can get air circulating and filtering through your shop.
If you know a good HVAC person, put a bug in their ear to set one aside the next time they do a furnace replacement (as opposed to chucking it in the garbage.)

Happy Building.


Dave Livermore
Minnesota
Author:  Todd Rose [ Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
I don't know how you'd deal with humidity control or dust control if you have a forced air heating system (or whatever kind of HVAC system that exchanges air with the rest of the house). Maybe there's a way, but that seems impossible to me. If I had that kind of HVAC system, I'd close up and seal off the vents in the shop and use a space heater in the shop. Actually, I already use a space heater a lot in my assembly room, as I often want it warmer in there than the rest of the basement, which is in the same heating "zone".

I have radiant heat throughout my house (boiler with hot water baseboard heaters; also a wood stove) and no A/C except in the assembly room of my shop. So, there's no active air exchange between my shop and the rest of the house. Both shop rooms are well sealed to contain RH, dust, and sound. These are, IMO, essential basic features of an in-the-home shop. Temp and RH control in the assembly room is easy, and dust containment in the machine room is straightforward. I use dust collection whenever I'm making dust; I also have a ceiling mounted air filtration unit; and I'm vigilant about keeping the shop reasonably clean - I vacuum often. I don't have any problem with dust getting in the rest of the house.
Author:  David R White [ Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
Rick, I'm in Toronto and I build year round. I have an outside shop which has no humidity control, and a small room inside the house which has humidity control. Everything being worked on stays inside, goes out to the shop for a couple of hours to be routed/sanded/sawed, etc and comes back in for storage glue up. It's a lot easier to control humidity in a small room.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Northern US & Cdn Luthiers - Do You Build Year Round?
Mike - I'm totally envious 28'x28'! Stand alone shop? Same question I posed to Rod, how do you seal your work area?

Mine is a stand alone shop!
200 feet from my house with a direct vent furnace .
and NO phone !!!!YES!!

Dust gets everywhere in the shop !
Even if i seal off parts !!
it's omnipresent !!

Mike
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