Waddy's right...the oil is not intended to dry. What you are doing is applying an oil/shellac finish.
Brace yourself, Michael's gonna go nuts!
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| Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=21102 |
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| Author: | David Newton [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
It's been a few days, and the other one is waaay over on page 2... I was considering my Walnut oil, and if it dried in the shellac, or did it just get wiped off, so I put a drop on the window. It wasn't dried the next day, but a couple of weeks later I remembered it and it seems to have dried. I was at Hobby-Lobby saturday and in the Artist-paint aisle was a bottle of Windsor-Newton "Drying Linseed Oil" only $6! Let's test something. So I tried my regular shellac and used the linseed oil like the walnut oil, a drop on the pad every 3 or 4 charges. My test over a couple of 20 minute sessions, a day between sessions, on a test board, shows the build-up thicker than normal. I was concerned the pad would harden (like using tru-oil) but it did not. Now I'm letting the test board sit a week and test for hardness, "imprinting", and if it goes all "orange peel" Has anyone else experimented with alternate "drying oils" as part of the mix? |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
Michael will probably chime in here and give you the ultimate answer, but if you are French polishing correctly, you should be Spiriting Off the oil after every bodying session, which leaves only shellac on the surface to dry. |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
Waddy's right...the oil is not intended to dry. What you are doing is applying an oil/shellac finish. Brace yourself, Michael's gonna go nuts!
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| Author: | David Newton [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
Of course I'm not french polishing "properly". I learned the Marshall Brune' method, and never "spirit off" specifically, my shellac is a very thin cut, though I don't know what the cut is, I just mix it up by sight. I also mix in about 10-20% sandarac. It smells good. I don't see any oil at the end of a session, I use very little, as a lube. Maybe the thinner cut is "spiriting off" as I go along. Using the drying linseed oil, maybe I'm mixing up a spirit varnish right there on the surface. I'm basically satisfied with my FP finish, but I like to experiment. Who wouldn't want to build a thicker finish faster, and it be more durable? |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
The oils used in French polishing are intended only as lubricants only. They are an aid to prevent the muneca from sticking during boding and glazing processes. They must be light oils (EV Olive oil and pure Walnut oil are the best choices in my book after 40 years of French polishing experience). these oils will rise through the shellac and set on top until, (and this is an important thing to know) they are removed in the spiriting off process. Never use a drying oil in French polishing or you end up with a short varnish and yes it will dry on the muneca making it hard. Couple other notes of interest!! Shellac in the inner pad will harden. In fact you want it to to a degree so that when you load a new load on the pad the alcohol re-melts a portion of the near hard shellac in the inner pad and this newly melted shellac is the shellac that is amalgamated into the film on the body. Understanding how the muneca works is key to being able to apply a quick building and truly amalgamated film. Which in turn is key to building a French polish finish that is as hard and possible. You can lay down a wet shellac coat (notice I said coat as apposed to session) but a wet coat is more just laid over a previous film as apposed to a French polish Session which is amalgamated (i.e. a thoroughly melted in to the film becoming part of a singular continuous film). Any drying oil trapped in the shellac will prevent this all important amalgamation. Stick with Walnut or at least EV Olive oil |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
David Newton wrote: Of course I'm not french polishing "properly". I learned the Marshall Brune' method, and never "spirit off" specifically, my shellac is a very thin cut, though I don't know what the cut is, I just mix it up by sight. I also mix in about 10-20% sandarac. It smells good. I don't see any oil at the end of a session, I use very little, as a lube. Maybe the thinner cut is "spiriting off" as I go along. Using the drying linseed oil, maybe I'm mixing up a spirit varnish right there on the surface. I'm basically satisfied with my FP finish, but I like to experiment. Who wouldn't want to build a thicker finish faster, and it be more durable? Marshall also is doing a hybrid FP (I would not consider it FP but a rapid build padded shellac finish more kin to varnish than a traditional FP finish but that is JMO) Sandarac is commonly used as a resin to help make the film harder. I personally find it unneeded and makes the film more kin to varnish but I have no issue with using it. I do have to say that I will put the hardness of my (shellac only) French polish up against almost any hybrid because I have learned that the key to the hardness is in the processes knowing how the best amalgamate the film can make a big difference in the hardness of the film. All this said Marshal’s process is a fine process. I just do not consider it to be French polishing in the traditional definition of the process. By all means feel free to experiment but do so on test scrap. I originally responded to a question about oils used in French polish that seems to have lead into a debate on what is and what is not French polish. I can't help there other than to say that French polishing is the process application developed by French and German furnishing makers in the 15 century and has a defined format that produces a singular amalgamated film rather than a series of applied films. It is my belief that no mater the mix the specific application method and materials used makes it French polishing. |
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| Author: | David Newton [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
Hi Michael. I don't have a problem with you wanting to keep the title "French Polish" pure in a historic context, as to the method and materials. You can be the keeper of the flame. I just think the term FP is a handy term that describes better than anything else, a general method of applying what ever the mix of materials, usually with alcohol as the carrier. I enjoy the application process, and if in fact it is a "short oil varnish" that I'm mixing up, all the better for experimentation. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
Thanks, but it is not the carrier that makes the process unique. It is application of shellac in this particular melted shellac process to produce a singular amalgamated film. There have been methods of applying shellac by means of padding documented dating back to the 8th century in China. Those methods too used alcohol as the solvent but those methods are not French polish. They were padded applications. French polish is a far different beast than just a padded application. Not meaning to be a stick in the mud here, And no offense meant or taken. But many finishers have been mislead in to thinking that any padded shellac finish is French polishing. I do not wish to continue such myth. I am not at all knocking basic padded shellac or varnish finish in any way they are fine finishes to themselves. But calling them French polishing is to dismiss the extremely well developed process that makes French polish it own unique finish. You see this specific application method produce a film that is both harder and deeper in appearance than a simple padded of brushed on finish. It was so prized it was considered by the elite to be the cream de la cream of furnishing finish for centuries. Ok I get off my soap box now |
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| Author: | David Newton [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
So if this "drying linseed oil" is used as a lube, is it mixing in with the shellac? If the test board looks good and dries hard after a week or two, what's the chance it would go jiggy after a year? |
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| Author: | eugeniodilampp [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
Dear Mr. David and Mr. Michael, it is what that makes the marshal brune method different than the french polish? his method is what? Eugenio |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
David Newton wrote: So if this "drying linseed oil" is used as a lube, is it mixing in with the shellac? If the test board looks good and dries hard after a week or two, what's the chance it would go jiggy after a year? Don't do that unlessyou inteend to make a varnish. Do not use linseed oil in the French polish process!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Linseed (flax seed oil) is a short drying oil it will make terrible lube oil. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
eugeniodilampp wrote: Dear Mr. David and Mr. Michael, it is what that makes the marshal brune method different than the french polish? his method is what? Eugenio Both application and the mix in my eyes. However you can use his mix in a traditional FP process. MB developed a fast build one day what he refers to as French polish method. There is nothing wrong with this finish. Me, being a traditional French polisher can not bring my self to call his process French polishing. it forgoes 2 of the major steps that makes French polish finishes a singular amalgamated film, different than all other padded methods. That does not mean I find anything wrong with his method. |
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| Author: | David Newton [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
Since I was the one who brought up Brune', I'll say that it's my opinion that he is doing FP, with a thinner cut, the possibility of an "oil-less" method, not that he advocates no oil, only that it can be done. He showed us to build a pad using wool and cheesecloth inside a cotton or linen outer. "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Michael, you said you were off your soap box. I accept that it isn't "FP". The reason I posted is because this drying oil (call it varnish) did a good job of lubricating, and after two sessions, seemed to build a dry finish. What is it going to do, blow up? |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
David Newton wrote: Since I was the one who brought up Brune', I'll say that it's my opinion that he is doing FP, with a thinner cut, the possibility of an "oil-less" method, not that he advocates no oil, only that it can be done. Ok I did not want to debate this but The Burne method as I understand it does not use Stiffing off as means of remelting and leveling the surface and therby amalgamating the film aftere each body session. Which is the heart of French polishing. You must under stand I have only see his method performed once several years ago so this is my memory. If both or either of these two things I mentioned are true then there is no way to consider the Burne method to be French polishing as both are critical to building a singular amalgamated film. Once again I think the Burne method is a fine finish and I think he is a great craftsman and brilliant man Oh and yes you can French polish with out any oil but it does take a bit more attention to the shellac flow to know when to reload. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
David Newton wrote: Since I was the one who brought up Brune', I'll say that it's my opinion that he is doing FP, with a thinner cut, the possibility of an "oil-less" method, not that he advocates no oil, only that it can be done. He showed us to build a pad using wool and cheesecloth inside a cotton or linen outer. "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Michael, you said you were off your soap box. I accept that it isn't "FP". The reason I posted is because this drying oil (call it varnish) did a good job of lubricating, and after two sessions, seemed to build a dry finish. What is it going to do, blow up? I don't expect anything to blow up. I will possible make a good finish but the linseed oil is preventing a pure shellac amalgamation. I will say no more and post no more on this as i do not wish to arguee you asked a question about oil and French polish the debated with me. I gave good info and tried my darndest not to be aginst any shellac application. I have stated what I can to answer you original question so I am done. |
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| Author: | David Newton [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
Thank you. With all respect, and I do respect you Michael, was not a desire to debate if what I was doing was a FP. What I desired was to ask if anyone had used a drying oil as part of a shellac finish. If mixing shellac and oil will cause my finish to peel off inside my warranty period (just a joke!) I would be interested in that. My test board will tell me something in a few weeks. It's the few years I'm interested in. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
Michael Dale Payne wrote: ...that makes French polish finishes a singular amalgamated film, different than all other padded methods... Um........ Any evaporative finish creates a singular "amalgamated" or as is commonly called, continuous film. Lacquer does it as well as shellac and some of the newer WB finishes. It doesn't matter how it's applied, it's the alcohol (for shellac) that burns one coat into the previous coat creating one continuous film. Know, the FP method just helps create a harder film versus a sprayed on or wiped on film. |
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| Author: | David Newton [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hey! another French Polish Shellac topic! |
David Newton wrote: beehive No......... just clarifying some terms is all 
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