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Thickness-ing Wood
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Author:  mburton [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Thickness-ing Wood
I'm about ready to thickness the top, sides and back on build numero uno. A thickness sander isn't an option right now, so I figure my options are: pay a local cabinet maker for some time on their thickness sander, buy the Wagner Saf-T-Plane, or use tools I already have, which at this point, for this operation, I think my options are limited to a 5" festool ROS and a Lie Nielsen Low angle Jack Plane.

Is making a first pass with the plane, then finishing with the ROS a viable option, or should I put out the $50 for the Wagner or buy time on somebody else's thickness sander?

As always, thanks for the advice.
Author:  Frei [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
first one, thickness sander, and do an extra top.
Author:  James Orr [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
I agree with Frei. If you decide to stick with it, look into a few ways to do it on your own, but you have enough to get a handle on this go round.

Have fun with it!
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
I don't know how far Austin is from some of the other Texas guys here. You could start a new thread with a subject "need help in Texas" or something like that and ask for some help.

Maybe a case of beer will get you everything sanded and you'll have most likely met someone very nice and willing to help [:Y:]
Author:  Dave Ellingsworth [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
I used the Safe-T-Planer on my first, for top back & sides, and it worked fine. Of course, it depends on the wood itself, but the Safe-T-Planer can come in handy for many other things also, and in my opinion is worth buying. Just the other day I used it to plane some thin offcuts of rosewood to reinforce a neck tenon, based on Cumpiano's revised method with the bolt-through. It's also great for neck taper, peghead overlays, etc.

After the first one, I built a thickness sander using the plans from ShopNotes magazine. It's easier to use for thicknessing tops/backs/sides than the Safe-T-Planer, but the Safe-T-Planer will work.

dave
Author:  walnut47 [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
I just thicknessed some sides using a Stanley #5 plane I bought at a yard sale for $15. I followed that with a cabinet scraper. Did a fine job. It was much quieter than a thickness sander and less messy too. And it really didn't take all that much longer. I did spend a couple of hours of tune-up on the plane. I find it's a lot more enjoyable to make shavings than sawdust.
Walter
Author:  Lars Stahl [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
My suggestion is Safe-t-planer, then use a 3. 4 or 5 plane, get the cumpiano book !! there´s a real good "how to thickness tops" in it ! if you have 2 planes then file teeth on one ogf them (you´ll understand as you read cumpiano book) Most of the time when you get a top its about 5-6mm thick or so "depending on where you get it. , use the safe-t-p..... to take of the first 2-3 mm then plane the rest of to finally sand it to thickness.

not only is it good training to get a great feel for it, its also alot of fun !! :D
Lars.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
I have a drum sander and will do the job for you for free you pay shipping and insurance both ways. now I am out west in Odessa so we are talking three days to get to me and 3 days back via priority mail as we are not in one of the express zones for priority mail. that said there are many luthiers in Austin and even more cabinet shops.

My thoughts on safty planer is it is a good tool if you know what you are doing and a dagerous too if you don't. Both the the operator and the material.

if you have woodwork experiance and know how to use and tune a plane for fine cuts then this is a pretty simple job. a combed blade i think helps to know where you are cutting at 45 degree angle to the grain from one side then the nex then with the grain and fish up with a sharp cabinet scraper. But here again you really need to know how to tune, setup and use the plane,

Anyway let me know if you would like me to thickness them for you and i will pm you my address.
Author:  Jimmy Caldwell [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
Mark,

I'm close to Austin and would be glad to thickness your wood for you. Just me pm me and we can set something up.
Author:  Geordie Adams [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
hi Mark
this is where I am at the moment, thicknessing my first top so I cant really give any advice cause I’m doing a two year course in Stringed Musical Instrument Making and Repair and we are being tutored to do the whole process with hand tools, hot hide glue and french polish. It’s a lot to learn never mind actually do, but I would’nt want any other way, the skills will come and the experience will be valuable
yours Geordie.
Oh I got a nice LN 5 1/2 Jack for christmas which I reckon helps.
Author:  Flori F. [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
Not to take this off topic (perhaps I should start a separate thread), but is anyone in Southern California willing to offer the use of a thickness sander to this poor sap? (My shop is our apartment's spare bedroom.) If you're out there, please pm me! Thanks!

Flori
Author:  Greg [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
The first few I used a hand plane and ROS. Took about a whole Saturday and Sunday to get the thickness but then there were variations for 0.085 to 0.100. Next i got hold of an inexpensive electric hand planer, and got my time down to just saturday but still variable thicknesses. By # 12 I invested in a Delta thickness sander. Time now about 10 minutes. I sleep with my thickness sander now. It has been a wonderful relationship. I expect we'll be together for years to come. If you do lutherie or any woodworking and plan to continue the investment is worth it.
Author:  GregSmith [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
Jimmy Caldwell wrote:
Mark,

I'm close to Austin and would be glad to thickness your wood for you. Just me pm me and we can set something up.


Interesting that you near Austin, I'm also in Austin as well, and was trying to figure my options for thicknessing as well. I'm building a Selmer for my first, and plan to use Redwood top. I guess you could say I am a glutton for punishment for straying from conventional Spruce, but I think it would be interesting to try out. I just need to figure what my starting thickness should be using RW because once the pliage is bent into the top the rest has to be done by hand.

From what it sounds like for tops, thickness sanders are the way to go, I hear that using something like a safe-t planar or a thickness planar on certain woods can result in more wood chips than a sound board. Most likely I'll be getting my tops from LMI and just have them sand it to thickness for he fee, but it would be nice to know someone who has a thickness sander locally in the event I source my wood elsewhere! ;)
Author:  Tai Fu [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
For backs you can thickness with the wagner safety planer. The wood is much harder to sand anyways and I just thicknessed to .100 or more then by the time it's sanded it's down to .90. I used a palm sander for this. If you choose to thickness before joining thickness them thicker than you normally would because joining will introduce some offset that you will have to sand off and the thicker the piece the easier it is to join. For soundboards join them if the thickness is around .135-.150 DO NOT take a top into a safety planer unless it is way too thick (like exceeds .150 and only take it down to .150-.145 with the planer) So that means you should join the soundboard as received if you bought it from Stewmac or LMI. Stewmac thickness sands all soundboard to .135 by the way just join them as it is and fine tune the thickness later on with a palm sander (or a thickness sander). Spruce sands very easily you should have no trouble taking them down to the proper thickness using conventional tools. If you're building for small body/classicals then thin the top to around .125 with the safety planer and by the time you sanded out all tool marks it should be around .100 or so.

Also if you do decide to buy the safety planer make sure you build a false table and shim them until they are level or else if you try to thickness something like backs and sides they will come out ugly. Otherwise the safety planer is very useful for making necks and stuff and also leveling rough sawn parts.
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
Todd Stock wrote:
If going the hand plane route, get a couple low grade tops and practice until you get things right.

I totally agree with Todd. I am still working on my first guitar, but have finished the top (getting ready to close the box). I bought a couple of defect tops (Sap pockets) for real cheap. I practiced joining, hand planing, and getting the top to a uniform thickness. When it came time for my "real" top, I had acquired a Performax 10-20, but I still hand planed down to approx .150 or .160 before using the sander to get a uniform thickness (and ready for rosette), and the practice on the defect tops was invaluable!

I used 2 planes that I found handy: old Stanley WWI era #5 (off ebay, and well tuned already), and WWII era #4 (from OLF Swap, already set-up well) that I added with Hock blade/chipper.

Thanks!

Glenn
Author:  rlrhett [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
Hand thicknessing with a hand plane has proven nearly impossible for me. Is my plane perfectly flat, probably not. I have also recently had a demo of how to really sharpen a blade. Maybe with a better setup, I'll be more successful. However, for now a sanding machine is the only real solution.

Speaking of which, I recently moved to Vallejo, CA. Anyone know of a cabinet shop in the area that might rent time on their sander? Vallejo is near Napa, Fairfield, Richmond, El Cerrito, etc.

Thanks,
Author:  justink [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
I echo the Hand Plane approach. I just closed up my first box and I used a super cheap, used Craftsman #6 plane with stock blade with ABSOLUTELY NO previous experience with planing (and little with woodworking). I also used an old cabinent scrapper of my Dad's (not sharp at all, mind you). Here is what I think:

Learning to use a hand plane is a critical skill unless you have buukuu bucks to buy power tools for EVERY process in the build. You use them for braces, necks, etc, etc etc etc etc

They are relatively cheap. You can find a used #4, #5, or #6 for between $10 and $50 and with about $10 of sandpaper, a honing jig, and a piece of plate glass, you can sharpen the blade and true the sole.

It takes time to learn how to sharpen and plane, but if you are worried about time go buy a guitar from your local shop.

You could let some one else do it, but IMHO - what is the point of that??????? Why even build a guitar if you don't want to figure each part out?

Saw dust is bad for you, pretty little curly shavings are not :)

Just my 2 cents. Each process is a HUGE learning experience on your first - don't pass up opportunities to learn because it is hard or scary.
Author:  mburton [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
First of all, thanks to everyone for the replies, and thank you to everybody who has offered to help me out.

My calipers just came in today, so I checked the top and its at about .180 now. The back is thicker than that. The guitar is small body rosewood/cedar build, so my plan is to take the top to .125 before bracing. Because I really want to get more practice with hand tools, I think I'm going to try with the plane first to and finish it up with the ROS. I figure I can go extremely slow and reevaluate as I go. I guess I should start with the back first since I have more wiggle room there.

Also, it's good to see that there are so many locals on here.
Author:  Blain [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
Hey Mark,

I'm also close to Austin (Leander) and have a thickness sander. It could use a new feed belt right now, but you're welcome to PM me sometime if you would like to stop by.

I'm new to guitar building also (working on #3 right now), so I'm probably not the best to guide you through everything, but I'm sure we could put our notes together and figure things out along the way.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
mburton wrote:
Because I really want to get more practice with hand tools, I think I'm going to try with the plane first to and finish it up with the ROS. I figure I can go extremely slow and reevaluate as I go. I guess I should start with the back first since I have more wiggle room there.


I thicknessed the top on my #1 that way. It worked fine although the thickness wasn't quite as even as you can get with a drum sander. Once I go close I measured it and marked the high spots with a pencil then used a scraper to knock down the high spots.

Here's a cheap way to measure the top thickness, it's just a dial indicator on a magnetic base, about $20 from Grizzly or HF, and an acorn nut with a polished top stuck to the saw top with some magnets.
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Author:  stan thomison [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
Wagner is good tool and as name implies safe. Like any tool that cuts pay attention to detail. Leave thick enough if have to sand ridges etc.

TAKE JIMMY CALDWELLS advice and contact him. He is a stud builder, and can learn things while doing this. Your benefit all way around.
Author:  truckjohn [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
Planes, scrapers, and sand paper work just fine.... in fact Musical Instruments were made for ~10,000 years before the advent of the Drum Thickness Sander..... It just takes time. I found that 1 top, back, and sides set takes 20-30 hours to go from "Raw" to "220 grit Finished sanded" Compare this to under 1 hour for the whole shebang on a Drum Sander.

I would advise against a Low Angle model if your wood is figured -- as it can be more prone to tearing out on switchy wood... Then again, the Low Angle planes leave an awesome finish on Spruce.... so it is a trade off. For the Low Angle Plane on figured woods, you can hone a 45* micro-bevel to bring the total angle up to ~57* It will be a bit harder to push, but Far less tearout prone.

Now, for your Back and Sides set -- a "Tooth" blade is a must. The work goes from "Frustrating and Impossible" to "Easy."

Anyway, On a Budget....
2 used #5 stanleys (Available on Ebay, flea markets, and yard sales for $15.00 each)
(Or supplement your LABP with 1 cheapo used #5 with a toother blade)
1 plane gets a "Toothing" blade made from a $2.97 Home Depot 2" iron and a dremel.
1 plane uses the standard iron.

Follow up with a Card Scraper (costs about $8.00)
Then finish up with sanding blocks -- sanding only with the grain. Start with 80 grit, work up to 220 grit.

The key to this whole operation is "Sharp" -- so err on the side of "More Sharpening" and the tools won't fight you.

Good luck

John
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
John welcome to the OLF! [:Y:] [clap] [clap] [clap]
Author:  Kevin Smith [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
I use a random orbit sander to thickness top, back and sides. A pencil and thickness caliper are critical to this process. You can get everything to within .002 pretty easily. I tried the metal "micro-plane" ROS things and was disappointed. Sandpaper works, particularly well on a Festool.
Author:  the Padma [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thickness-ing Wood
Yo, dude,

The Lie Nielson low angle will do the job. No problem.

Well actually the job can be done by you using the LN. Its a good plane.

Solid table, some calipers, a few hours of solitude with the wood. You'll do just fine.

Remember, power tools have only been around about 100 years. So how do you think all them older instruments got build? Hmmm...hand tools. And that LN low angle ain't a cheepe.

Remember ...have fun.


blessings
the
Padma
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