Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=21056		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  wolfsearcher [ Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
hi guys just bought one of those stu mac aluminum radius beams
and im a bit skint to by the neck jig . ive got a load of guitars that need fret work
and i was thinking to myself...
Would it be a solution to take off the strings and
fish them through the beam.. put them back on ..wait for a day or so
and sand away with the tension of the strings keeping the neck right
does anyone do this ? I guess i might need a riser for the nut
because of the strings pushing down
if this works could i level the fretboard the same way
Author:  Mike Dotson [ Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
No. Take the strings, and the nut, off the guitar before you do anything.
Author:  wolfsearcher [ Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
hi tomas here thanks for the quick reply
im guessing that you have a neck jig already or some alternative
i have done the process of leveling the frets under the strings
before using a stu mac diamond fret leveler sharpening tool
with good results apart from the akwardness and that i took too much
off my frets i think i slightly tightened my truss rod aswell
it is a bit akward though!
is there a homemade neck jig out there that you dont need those dials
to use it and get a 100% level fretboard any links would be very helpful
thanks tomas
Author:  Wayne Clark [ Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
Hi Tomas,

Check out this discussion leveling frets under string tension. Rick Turner described a way to do just what you are talking about without spending a ton of money on jigs and tools.

Wayne
Author:  Jeffrey L. Suits [ Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
Wayne Clark wrote:
Hi Tomas,

Check out this discussion leveling frets under string tension. Rick Turner described a way to do just what you are talking about without spending a ton of money on jigs and tools.

Wayne


I use U-channel:

Image

Image

The handle isn't a necessity, but it helps. I also have a couple of shorter ones, for spot leveling.
There's 4 of these 4" ones, w/stickon sandpaper. The U channel was an Oregonian luthier's idea, his name escapes me now.

I call this method, "the poor man's Plek".
Author:  Guest [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
Yes! That's his name...
Author:  npalen [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
wolfsearcher wrote:
hi guys just bought one of those stu mac aluminum radius beams
and im a bit skint to by the neck jig . ive got a load of guitars that need fret work
and i was thinking to myself...
Would it be a solution to take off the strings and
fish them through the beam.. put them back on ..wait for a day or so
and sand away with the tension of the strings keeping the neck right
does anyone do this ? I guess i might need a riser for the nut
because of the strings pushing down
if this works could i level the fretboard the same way


You are thinking outside the box here and that is not a bad thing.
Nelson palen
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
wolfsearcher wrote:
hi guys just bought one of those stu mac aluminum radius beams
and im a bit skint to by the neck jig . ive got a load of guitars that need fret work
and i was thinking to myself...
Would it be a solution to take off the strings and
fish them through the beam.. put them back on ..wait for a day or so
and sand away with the tension of the strings keeping the neck right
does anyone do this ? I guess i might need a riser for the nut
because of the strings pushing down
if this works could i level the fretboard the same way


Well first the tickness of the Stewmac aluminum sanding caul is about 3/16" (.1875) the aberage clearance of sting bottoms at the 1st ret is .low E 028- high E .013 and at the 12 low E .090 - high E .070 if set up and Martin specs for a 14 fret 25.4 scale that means at the best the stings would be stretch to twice or more there normal fret clearance to go through the sanding caul. Which in turn means the tension on the neck is increased which defeats you intent in the first place.
Author:  Kevin Gallagher [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
Leave the strings on of you're just looking to level the fret crowns to provide buzz free, low action.
Use the aluminum angle with self adhesive abrasive and set the neck perfectly flat and straight under
string tension.

Lay the angle side with the abrasive on it under the strings and you'll be able to sand individual string
coarses and easily blend them together to give a nice smooth crown radius by moving the angle one string
at a time across the board and then working it back and forth to avoid any peaks or angles in them.

The most important thing to being successful using this simple and inexpensive method and tool is to
be sure to mill the outside of that aluminum angle that will serve as your sanding surface so that is as
close to perfectly flat and straight as possible.

I actually chuck mine up in a small Bridgeport milling machine with a special vise jaw set up that
supports the entire 14 inch length of the angle that I use and run a carbide insert cutter along its length
to get it within .002" of being perfectly flat along that length.

I've used this method since the late 70s and still have the first angle that I'd made in my grandfather's
machine shop from a piece of 1 inch square, 12 inch long piece of stainless steel, but the aluminum
works fine and is readily available for just a few dollars.

Once you've leveled them in their length, you can remove the strings to do the individual fret work
like crowning, polishing a rounding the ends.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars
Author:  jordan aceto [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
This is the coolest thing i have learned about in a long time, i'm off to get some aluminum!
Author:  wolfsearcher [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
Hello again ... i was thinking of the extra tension because of the nut
having to be higher.... but what if straped the headstock down
then placed the riser under the strings ?
........ would the strap need to be in a certain angle to pull correctly..
and what about truss-rod adjustment ?
i cant wait to use my shiny new beam and i dont have any shortage of
cheapies to test the theory on
the one thing thats good about the akwardness part is at least the strings will
guide me easier from drifting off the board
thanks guys tomas
Author:  Todd Rose [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
Todd, Kevin, and Jeffrey - I don't get how this works toward the nut end of the FB. There's way less than 1/16" clearance between the strings and the fret crowns, especially at the first fret. Do you just jam the thing under there?
Author:  jordan aceto [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
Todd Rose wrote:
I don't get how this works toward the nut end of the FB. There's way less than 1/16" clearance between the strings and the fret crowns, especially at the first fret. Do you just jam the thing under there?


I am thinking you could just pop the strings on top of the nut, if that wasnt enough clearance, maybe one of those not height raising metal jobbies for slide playing(Chris at the IGW has them Todd)
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
I don't really get this either. It seems to me that for any given fret as long as the next 5 to 6 frets are proportionally level you will have low action and no buzz. I like a bit of relief in the neck, If you file the frets with a 14in leveller with relief in the neck aren't you getting into some trouble?
Author:  Jeffrey L. Suits [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
Todd Rose wrote:
Todd, Kevin, and Jeffrey - I don't get how this works toward the nut end of the FB. There's way less than 1/16" clearance between the strings and the fret crowns, especially at the first fret. Do you just jam the thing under there?


The walls of the U-channel are 1/16" thick, so, yes, it just jams up under there. The inside edges of the U have been relieved so that the strings will not hang up on the aluminum.

What you're doing with a 4" leveler, is dealing with overlapping sets of three frets minimum, rather than the whole fretboard at once. You can get crazy low action with this method, nice when you're working on a jazz box w/flats. I usually knock down frets 14-up a few more strokes, to ensure fallaway.
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
I don't get it either... I have this Stew-Mac radius sanding beam and only use it for leveling a fret board and an initial leveling of the frets - no strings on the guitar.

I thought the whole idea that you have is to use the beam under string tension which is the part that I don't understand the benefits of. I also don't understand how you can use this with the string passing through it. If the strings are placed on top of the nut and properly tensioned some of them are going to migrate off the neck depending on your head stock design. So I don't see how it is even possible to tension the strings and have them clear the inside of the radius sanding beam.

The angle iron addresses these concerns and works great for me too.
Author:  wolfsearcher [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
thats why i was on about a nut (improvised knife handle with slots )behind the nut any
ideas on the strap on headstock theory ?
Author:  jordan aceto [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
From reading through the original thread, paying special attention to Rick, Evan and Kevin, i think this is not one to overthink. Try it, and you will either like it, or not.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
jfmckenna wrote:
I don't really get this either. It seems to me that for any given fret as long as the next 5 to 6 frets are proportionally level you will have low action and no buzz. I like a bit of relief in the neck, If you file the frets with a 14in leveller with relief in the neck aren't you getting into some trouble?


You don't do the leveling with the relief in the neck. You first adjust the truss rod to make the neck as straight as possible, then do the leveling, then put the relief back in. That part I do understand.

The reason for leveling frets this way, as I understand it, is that with the neck under normal string tension, it will behave the way it does when under normal string tension. I know, that sounds like a duh , but the point is that a neck that is adjusted straight when it's not strung up may not reveal some quirks of what it's going to do under tension. So, if you adjust it straight with the strings off, and level the frets, then when it's under string tension and adjusted straight again, the frets may not be level any more. Whether you leave it straight (for a player who likes a dead straight neck) or put some relief in it, you don't have the most ideal, even playing surface, so you can't set the action as low. Leveling with the neck under tension solves this. So they say, anyway - I haven't tried it yet myself.

On guitars that I've built so far, I have not found this to be an issue. That is, if I level the frets with the strings off (and no neck jig or anything), then string it up and adjust the truss rod to straighten the neck under tension, the frets are still level.
Author:  wolfsearcher [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
thanks for all the feedback guys i really didnt think it would raise such a topic
after reading everything ive decided to level the fb instead of the frets under
the strings
i dont want a wobbley board with level frets also
it seems better to me because i dont want to make
a mess of my med fretwire being too low and such

thanks again ill reply with the results of my radius beam under
string theory on this page
tomas
Author:  Todd Rose [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
Thanks to Jeffrey and Jordan for addressing my question about working under the strings down near the nut. Re-reading the original thread (linked to above), I saw that Rick had addressed this as well. I had missed that.

Next time I'm doing a refret or fret dressing, or if it ever seems necessary as I'm setting up a guitar I've built, I'll try it. No doubt it beats a neck jig.
Author:  wolfsearcher [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
hi guys tomas here just strung my old cheapie archtop after refreting
no high spots or nothing at all needed after instalation
stu mac 148 med and my new frets are all lovely and high

the strings through the beam make it more stable when
sanding aswell
also for the nut riser i used a piece of wood about 1/3 the size of
the headstock contoured it so the pressure was near the nut
and with a piece that fit snug in the nut slot

im definatly going to stick to this method
the only thing i found awkard about this method is
you cant see how much you have sanded down into the fretboard
in the middle of the neck
youre not sure if youve got your desired radius
but with ye guys experince and marker lines im sure you can
let the tool do its work ..
to sum it all up it saves me buying fret polishing tools
when the fretwire is perfect anyway so i can buy tools that i really need
just thought ye might be interested
tomas
Author:  MarkW [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
I use Rick's method for spot leveling and sometimes to do a full level on entry level guitars. I believe that the intent of the neck jig is to compensate for both string tension and the position of the neck when held in the playing position. The final jigging and adjustment process takes place in the playing postion and then the dial indicator settings are reproduced when the guitar is rotated to its back and the strings removed. With the dial indicators one can see that some guitars will have a significant amount of neck deflection when rotated from the playing postion to their back. So I'm thinking that the manner in which the neck is supported while the guitar is lying on the bench will determine how much potential error will be transferred into the leveling process. Does the difference justify the purchase of a neck jig? Hard to say, but just look at the growing number of people who are willing to shell out big money for a fret level performed on a PLEK machine.
Author:  npalen [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: sanding frets while strings threaded through radi-sand beam
Just thinking out loud here...........
A tool very much like the StewMac aluminum radius sanding beam could probably be made with one side left open so that it could be slipped under the strings from the side. Probably wouldn't be as rigid as the enclosed shape but rigid enough?
Nelson Palen
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/