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Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
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Author:  Dave Livermore [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
I'm in process of trying to fill pores again.
We know that each method has a trade off, be it fumes, mess, labor, cost etc...
This time around I've decided on using egg whites.
Everything I've read makes it sound like the cat's meow.

But after two nights in the shop, I have yet to get a pore filled.

I've whipped up another batch of whites to set until tomorrow, and hopefully the third application will work out.

My assumption on the method is that one uses the sand paper to create some dust that is then deposited into the pores and held there by the binder (in this case the egg white.) Upon trying this out, I've not had good luck.
The 220 grit paper I first tried disintegrated and left sand on the top. The 400 grit didn't kick out enough dust (for my initial patience level) to make things work out. Tonight I tried a different 220 that didn't dissolve on contact and I kicked up a slurry that was bordering on a nice rusty color that matched the Sapele I'm working with.
But after drying, it looked like there were still some open pores.

If someone has used this method, I hope they might comment on how long they spend on the sections being filled, how hard they press on the sanding block, how thick the slurry should be, etc...

I'd really appreciate some input.

thanks,

Dave
Author:  Cyril PINEAU [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
Hi Dave,

I'll use egg white to fille pores on my first classical. First of all, I've spoken with an old french violon luthier who used this method, then I've worked two or three weeks on scrap wood to find the good way to do it. Here is my process, step by step, to get a good result :

1 - Prepare egg withes in a container, blend it strongly and let the container in the fridge for a night. Remove the waste before using it.
2 - Apply 3 fine coats on the wood - let the wood dry after each coat. You can use a hair dryer (far away from the wood) to make it dry faster.
3 - Sand it using 400 grit paper, back to the wood.
4 - Apply 2 coats on the wood using the same method
5 - Sand, again, with the same paper
6 - Apply 1 coat on the wood (still the same way ...)
7 - Sand using 600 Grit paper (very long, but here the wood is turning to a beautiful ambered color)
8 - Apply a last coat, very very small
9 - Sand using 800 Grit paper, then 1200, and Micromesh to finish.

Using this methode I've got some good results. It's very very long ... but very simple to do.
Hope it help.

Cheers,

Cyril
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
Cyril my friend one of the things that concerns me about your method is that you finish up sanding through 1,200 and then onto micro-mesh.

Depending on your choice of finish you may find adhesion problems if you sand beyond 220-240. Folks often think that going to finer and finer grits prior to finishing will lead to a great finish but the reality with some finishes is that beyond 240 is not necessary and won't assist the finish with the mechanical adhesion that needs to take place with some finishes.

My hats off to you for doing trial pieces/runs - that is the best way that I have ever tried to learn things. [:Y:]
Author:  Cyril PINEAU [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
oops_sign I should have mentioned that I've done my test with a natural oil finish (I haven't bought my frensh polish yet ...). For a frensh polish (typically what i would like to do on the guitar), I sure don't go so finer ...
Many thanks for the good remark Hesh ;)
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
That makes sense Cyril - sounds like you have a great plan! [:Y:]
Author:  Cyril PINEAU [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
Thank you but ... without your advice, I would have try sanding with 400 before my french polish :oops: - my plans still suffer from my inexperience ;)
Author:  jordan aceto [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
Hesh wrote:
Cyril my friend one of the things that concerns me about your method is that you finish up sanding through 1,200 and then onto micro-mesh.

Depending on your choice of finish you may find adhesion problems if you sand beyond 220-240. Folks often think that going to finer and finer grits prior to finishing will lead to a great finish but the reality with some finishes is that beyond 240 is not necessary and won't assist the finish with the mechanical adhesion that needs to take place with some finishes.

My hats off to you for doing trial pieces/runs - that is the best way that I have ever tried to learn things. [:Y:]


I like to sand way up into the grits for some woods, and i have not had any finish adhesion problems. I like to seal with a coat of shellac and spray over that. I am curious if anyone out there has ever actually had finish problems from overly fine sanding, i get the feeling that it is a bit of a myth(with no disrespect to you Hesh)

If you are french polishing, it will stick to just about any surface.

People say that sanding finer than 240 does not give you any visual advantage, but it does! Sometimes i also burnish wood with a piece of softer wood, after super fine sanding.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
Hi Jordan - I have never had finish adhesion problems from sanding with finer grits. I used to sand everything to 400 and had others here tell me what I posted above so I stopped.

Maybe it is a myth Eat Drink I can see that with shellac that it would stick to nearly anything.
Author:  Allen McFarlen [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
I've just done a Sapele Uke with egg whites. I just separate the egg and dab a piece of 180 grit sand paper into the egg white and use this to sand up a slurry on a small portion at a time. I'm using some velcro backed white sterated paper that I've got a large roll of. It holds up well to the moisture in the egg white.

I found it's better to stop sanding while the slurry is still lust a little "slippery. If I kept going it seemed to dry the slurry up and start to pull the fill out of the pores. Just two sessions filled all the pores. Looks great.

I sand back with P240 and then switch to P320. I finish with precat. lacquer.
Author:  Dave Livermore [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
Hey everyone,
Thanks for the replies and advice.

All the fretting and concern was for naught.
You can file me in the category with people who think filling pores with sandpaper and egg whites is the cat's meow.

I came home this evening, sanded back to wood and discovered a beautifully smooth and flat surface that is ready for finish.

It is possible that the first round of egg I used was on the thin side, which is why I was so frustrated. In preparing the solution, I whipped the eggs and took "stiff peaks" to a new level, which resulted in about a tablespoon of glair from one egg.
Last night's batch was a bit more runny. The resultant foam was mushy in texture where the first batch could have been mistaken for spray foam insulation.

Also noted was that fresh, sharp sandpaper that cut into the wood an lifted powder out, only to be packed right into the pores was a good approach. The slurry that resulted was frothy and dark in color, where my first attempt was a white foam.

Overall I'm happy with the results.

I Hope my experience helps those who are going to try this.

Dave
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
If you learned this technique from a violin maker he most likely was not using it to fill pores at all but rather as a sizing and antiquing technique.
Author:  the Padma [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
Ok as a professional practicing artist with a whole bunch of letters after me name on a signed stamped sealed diploma patching the hole in the wall behind me toilet, I can tell you that egg whites will work.

However...traditionally egg whites are a binder / sealer just as is hide glue in the making of paints.

So what you in effect are doing is filing the pours with a clear binder/sealer that is by its nature kinda thin...polyurethane, hide / hoof glues, varnish, shellac, white glue, epoxy, ca will in essence all do the same thing. I am not trying to gross you out here...these are all valid artists materials.

Now the commercial pour filler makers add filler and various colourants to the binder of there particular persuasion.

Typical fillers are. Sawdust, kaolin clay, talk, chalk, ground glass and earth. Yup dirt. Or anything else that is fine enough to get into the pours, binds into the binder and the colourant being used.

So now... pause here and think about it...you got about a dozen different binders and powders that when mixed with colorant (you know, the stuff they squirt into that "can I have a gallon of this colour" at the uncle Wally or Colour Your World paint store stuff...that's colourant or if you want the proper name...its Japan Colours or Universal Tints.


So

binder + colourant + powder or filler = pore filler.

Simple. Now that you know...you can make your own.

Truth is...whatever you can shove into the pours that stay put and looks good is a valid pour filler...get it?

Personally I like fine drywall compound, colourant and some white glue or hide glue .

Oh and ummm no ..."colour" is not spelled wrong...I'm Canadian and write in the Queens English...well most of the time.

blessings
the
Padma
Author:  Todd Rose [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
It seems that whenever the subject of using egg whites as pore filler comes up, someone is talking about whipping them up and separating out the liquid from the whipped foam, and then someone else comes along and says they just used plain old egg whites right out of the shell (separated from the yolk, of course), and that it worked great. I've been very curious about this. I haven't tried using egg whites to fill pores yet, but I've done a lot of baking involving whipped egg whites. That watery stuff that separates out of the foam at the bottom of the bowl doesn't seem like it would make as good a binder/filler to me as straight up unwhipped egg whites. It seems to be largely water, i.e. relatively low "solids" content. To me, that suggests more shrink back and probably a less effective binder. On the other hand, there must be a reason why some people have been doing it that way. idunno
Author:  Kim [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
As some my recall, I developed a rather server case of contact dermatitis after using Zpoxy to grain fill. So now, I don't really have the option of using epoxy products again and quite frankly knowing what I know now about the insidious nature of the chemicals used in these products, I would avoid them at any rate. Good ventilation and limiting exposure by use of protective wear is of course good practice, but from what I understand, the molecular structure of the fumes that epoxy gives off is so small that even the best carbon respirator cartridges are pretty much worthless after the first 5 minutes of exposure. These fumes go straight through your clothing and 'into' your skin and remember, they are a serious sensitizer.

The only truly safe way to work with epoxy is to use a full chemical suit which includes a positive pressure air mask. Not comfortable, and certainly not cheap, so egg whites it is for me from now on. That in mind, I have been looking at the process of applying egg white pretty closely over the last few months, but must admit that I have not actually done any first hand experimentation as yet. That said, at this stage it is my guess that you would need to whip and drain off the liquid when using egg white as a 'sizing' because you don't want the moisture raising the grain. However I don't think you would want to be whipping and draining when using egg whites to pore fill. The reason I suggest this is because I feel that you would need a little extra liquid in the mix to assist in working the wood dust into a slurry and to give a greater open time before as Allen suggest, the mix begins to dry out and pull itself back out of the pores as it is worked.

In regards to sink back, as I recall Allen mentioned that he did in fact experience a little sink back after his first attempt at filling with egg whites. However if my memory serves well he did not leave the instrument to dry out for an overly long period prior to sanding back, just over night I think. Also Allen is located in the tropics where high humidity levels would slow the drying process considerably if not completely. I am thinking that if left for a few days prior to sanding back at a good temp in low RH, you would over come any sink back issue. Like most things that are worth while, patience could be a key ingredient.

If you are thinking this is too long to wait between applications and epoxy would offer a much quicker way to get back to work, I would suggest that you do not let impatience get the better of you. It may say that it is 'OK' to sand Zpoxy after just 6 hours on the bottle, but the greener the mix, the meaner the mix and more toxic the dust, and between exposure to the fumes when wet, and exposure to the dust when green, your just asking for trouble, and on this particular topic I certainly do speak from experience.

Be safe

Kim
Author:  Martin Turner [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
I recently did a little pore filling test. I jointed up an opp grade IRW back set from Allied Lutherie and then proceeded to pore fill using egg whites on one side of the back and pumice on the other. Overall outcome.....the pumice filled side came out looking better than the egg white filled side. The egg white filled side looked ok initially but a few days down the track there was quite a bit of sink back.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
Okay, so maybe I've gotten the egg white whipping thing backwards. Is it that you whip the egg whites, drain off the watery stuff at the bottom of the bowl and throw that away? Then you save the foam, and wait for that to settle back into non-foamy liquid, and use that?
Author:  Colin S [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
I've pore filled about a dozen or more guitars using egg white, another dozen or so with shellac/pumice, and three with epoxy. Finished results are about the same with any of the above, they'll all fill the pores, but the next couple will be one with egg white and one with shellac. If an industrial chemist has to formulate and make the product, I prefer not to use it if I can avoid it. I don't do anything with the egg, just separate it from the yolk and use it straight, no whipping to a foam, in my view and experience that is just not necessary. I also brush a coat of the egg white onto the soundboard as a size before French polishing. On many Greman made lutes egg white was the only finish put onto the soundboard.

Colin
Author:  Kim [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
Martin Turner wrote:
I recently did a little pore filling test. I jointed up an opp grade IRW back set from Allied Lutherie and then proceeded to pore fill using egg whites on one side of the back and pumice on the other. Overall outcome.....the pumice filled side came out looking better than the egg white filled side. The egg white filled side looked ok initially but a few days down the track there was quite a bit of sink back.


Sorry Martin but with all due respect I don't feel that your post has added anything but more confusion to this thread.

Please mate explain for us the process you used when you tested egg whites against pumice. Please make an attempt to qualify your previous experience with each of these medium. You have not included anything that would indicate how you came to your conclusion other than to state you did one on one side, did the other on the other side, and the one came out better than the other. To my mind this sort of generalisation does not help anyone in a discussion, you need to be more specific if we are to gain from your experience.

E.G. Did you whip the egg white and drain as is the age old method used for creating 'sizing' for instruments? Did you use straight egg white from the shell not whipped and drained just as Allen had explain he has done? What grit abrasive did you use to make your slurry? How long did you leave the slurry to harden before you sanded it back? Was it hot weather? Was it humid at the time? Do you thing it is possible that you may have over-worked the slurry in your attempts to be thorougher and may have pulled the mix from the grain? Do you think you may have had better results if you had waited longer before sanding back? Or maybe used a more course or finer grit of abrasive to make the slurry? Do you think you may have had more success had you applied two light applications compared to one heavy? How the freak'in heck did you hold your tongue throughout the process? Come on mate, you get the idea, we need detail if we are to use our collective experiences to work this out, just saying ya been there done that and got the Tshirt is no real help to anyone, come on mate, give it up, we need to hear about the journey. [:Y:]

Cheers

Kim
Author:  Kim [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
Colin S wrote:
I've pore filled about a dozen or more guitars using egg white, another dozen or so with shellac/pumice, and three with epoxy. Finished results are about the same with any of the above, they'll all fill the pores, but the next couple will be one with egg white and one with shellac. If an industrial chemist has to formulate and make the product, I prefer not to use it if I can avoid it. I don't do anything with the egg, just separate it from the yolk and use it straight, no whipping to a foam, in my view and experience that is just not necessary. I also brush a coat of the egg white onto the soundboard as a size before French polishing. On many Greman made lutes egg white was the only finish put onto the soundboard.

Colin


Thank you Colin [:Y:] However still more detail from you would also be very valuable. Would you mind elaborating on your process?

Cheers

Kim
Author:  the Padma [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
Yo dudes....

Process?
How do you do it?
Whats the formula?

Well I guess these are all valid questions...

Truth is ... no two cabbages role down the hill the same way.

So

Choose the medium you wanna fill and or finish with and Just do it. Then you will know.

Once you know...nobody gonna take that away from you.

Anyways ...experimenting is more fun than the actual doing. It requires patience and patience is suppose to be a virtue. Besides that, its fun to sit and watch paint dry.


blessings
the
Padma
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
Todd Rose wrote:
Okay, so maybe I've gotten the egg white whipping thing backwards. Is it that you whip the egg whites, drain off the watery stuff at the bottom of the bowl and throw that away? Then you save the foam, and wait for that to settle back into non-foamy liquid, and use that?


You toss out the foam when making a glare, and use the liquid. The idea, so far as I can tell, is that it not foam up when applied (as it can do when brushed on a surface, which is how most artists would be using it). The main difference from the artist use for us is that artists use it as a size, which is a kind of partial sealer--to block or slow absorbtion of the stuff that will later be applied to the surface--so they don't want any build up on the surface. As a filler, we are pulled in two directions; one the one hand, more solids means more filling type stuff. On the other, if the filling stuff is foamy, it may sink or leave airy spaces later on.

I've been using glare for its traditional purpose as a size only. It does a good job of keeping rosewoods from bleeding color. But I don't see why it can't be a good binder for filling pores, too. I'm just not sure there whether the whole white or the glare is best.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
Thanks, Howard. Very helpful.
Author:  Colin S [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
For pore filling, as I said, I just use the egg white as it comes from the shell, crack it open, separate the yoke and I'm good to go. Just work a small area at a time with say 180-240 grit according to the wood. Don't overwork as you'll just pull fill out of the pores. You may have to go over it twice. When dried sand back with 320 and finish.

I also don't bother with making a glare for sizing the top, again just as it comes out of the shell.

One violin maker I know uses the spare yokes to make the mayonnaise for his sandwich!

Colin
Author:  Kim [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
Thanks Colin,

When you say that you may need to go over it twice, I am assuming that you work the mix into the pores with 180 - 240 grit, dependant on the type of wood being worked, until the slurry begins to dry a little and increases in viscosity to a point short of where it's own elasticity threatens to pull the mix back from within the pores. At this point, you allow the slurry to dry out completely and then, you sand back with 320 grit. At this stage, should any pores remain unfilled, you then repeat the process over. Is this correct, or do you not sand back between applications?

Also, how long do you wait before sanding back to avoid sink back, and what properties of the wood being worked determine whether or not you use a fine or more course grit of abrasive? Once again I assume that a harder wood may require a finer abrasive in order to avoid scratch patterns that would require so much sanding back to remove that you risk sanding away the fill in the pores.

From what I have been reading on the Internet over the past few month, it would seem that the people suggesting that a glare should be prepared and used to pore fill are folks who have not actually used egg whites to pore fill before but are aware of it's use as sizing on some instruments and in an effort to be helpful have made the assumption that this must be the answer. It is good to get first hand input from a luthier of your experience Colin because knowing the facts can save a great deal of frustration and further misinformation being spread about when the medium ends up being blamed instead of user error or inexperience.

Thanks for your input.

Kim
Author:  Cyril PINEAU [ Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Egg Whites for pore filling and having troubles.
Kim wrote:
...

From what I have been reading on the Internet over the past few month, it would seem that the people suggesting that a glare should be prepared and used to pore fill are folks who have not actually used egg whites to pore fill before but are aware of it's use as sizing on some instruments and in an effort to be helpful have made the assumption that this must be the answer.

...


"folks who have not actually used egg whites" ... well ... :roll: I've suggested that a glare should be prepared ... And I've wrotte it. It's a method given to me by OSMAN, a french violin maker, to fill pores. Not to do something else : to fill pores, by applying 5 coats of it. "It's a misinformation because it's a beginer who said it ..." ... wow ... not my point of view. This is probably a way to do it ... but I think that you should not put two and two together to fast. I don't have much experience but 've done some tests using this method and it's ok, that's why I've given this information. Should i give proof of it by positng pictures next time ?

gaah
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